Why we shouldn’t Torture even the worst of terrorists
I’ve read some interesting responses to my previous article “Thoughts on Jihad”.
I heard people talk about how they’re terrorist so they don’t deserve justice, and wrapping them in pug guts to act out their version of hell. And yet the liberal sense of moral is questioned… how interesting.
If you look, these are exactly the same things THEY would do. When they capture our troops they torture them, and kill them.
Let me tell you all a story about the American Revolution.
During the war, British Soldiers had a policy towards prisoners of war, that they are no more then rats. Some had a policy of being able to not recognize an Americans’ surrender, and kill them on the spot, point blank. The ones they did capture were tortured in horrible ways.
But General Washington had a different policy, When he captured British soldiers, he treated them with Respect, no, this doesn’t mean he pampered them, he merely recognized that they were soldiers following orders just as he was, and so, when captured, they were locked up and interrogated, but never shot, and never tortured, his kindness to these soldiers was unprecedented, and even persuaded several British P.O.W’s to join his side.
Now look at WWII
Germany:
When Germans captured P.O.W’s, they often hung many of them, or sent them to concentration camps to be used as slave labor, when the Russians finally broke threw and advanced the German line, they found many of their comrades butchered like animals, many shot at point blank.
When the Allies sunk the Bismarck, Germany’s ultimate Weapon in the Atlantic, did they just sit there and let it’s crew drown? No, they brought them aboard their ships, and gave them dry cloths, I remember watching a program that had an interview of a German sailor who served on that ship who said, “I couldn’t believe the kindness they were showing”
Now look at what we’re doing today, we have people like Paul who want to torture Islamic soldiers but enacting their version of hell, you have Bush sending P.O.W’s to Cuba And Saudi Arabia to be tortured, meanwhile he claims that “torture is Inhumane!” blah blah
You have U.S soldiers in Iraq celebrating the fact that they killed an unarmed Iraqi soldier.
The Fact of the mater is, that just because some one may be evil, doesn’t mean that they deserve to be treated in such a manner, the respect that America and It’s allies showed captured soldiers In WWII, and That General Washington showed the British, is what separates US from THEM, how can you claim to be good fighting evil, when you go and do the exact same things THEY do?
Now, because of my psychic powers, I can see some of you saying things like “They’re Murderers of American citizens” and “they aren’t soldiers!”
My response to that is as follows:
It’s no different from any serial killer in the U.S. don’t they murder American citizens? Aren’t they the enemy of the public? Don’t they also have the right to stand trial before a grand jury?
Are you saying that when Super man catches a bad guy that instead of putting them in jail to face justice, that he should simply kill them because they’re bad guys?
Just like Super Man, it’s what makes America different from people like Saddam Hussein, that we have our enemies stand trial rather than torturing them and killing them, every one has a right to fair trial, no mater how much of a monster they are.
Antilla The Hun
pizz Says: June 3rd, 2005 at 3:11 am
What happened to “A web site for people in their right mind!”. I was under the impression that this was a conservative website (maybe even moderate liberal). What I have seen in the last week are ranting “conspiracy theory” ratical liberals, people that lead an issue into a continuous circle. On other websites I have actually taken good advice on some issues from moderate, intelligent liberals. This website’s intent seems to be geared more towards liberal conversion. I’ve seen sources listed by commentors that would make my liberal friends burst out laughing. This article is just another long winded rant with the intent to sell an opinion without question. Waste of time. Say hi to george soros and al franken for me.
Adios
don Says: June 3rd, 2005 at 3:16 am
These men were captured while fighting against American troops dressed as citizens on the battle field in a hostile situation during a time of war.
They are treated with respect and we should be proud of the job our military has done and the restraint our soldiers have shown.
Any comparisons with brutality, torture or murder is simply wrong.
The US has provided Korans to prisoners so they could practice their religion freely and taken care to respect customs and traditions including meals that respect their culture and religion.
No, it’s not the Holiday Inn or even Motel 6, but these detainees are treated much better than ANY US prisoner of any war has ever been treated.
“Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of those who threaten it”
Lefty Says: June 3rd, 2005 at 4:00 am
Don,
Actually many of the prisoners taken in Afghanistan were not captured on the battlefield. They were turned in by Afghan warlords who received hefty sums (3.5 million total) for turning in people who they (the warlords) claimed were combatants. Do you trust Afghan warlords?
Mr. Jack Says: June 3rd, 2005 at 6:55 am
Pizz, are you and I reading the same articles? I can see Suzanne’s being extremely liberal and wacko (no offence Suzann) but for the most part, this week the articles submitted are about economic and moral issues, not conspiracy theories.
The bulk of the articles posted by me are on Job growth, Stem cell research, The whole China Housing situation, and yes, one history lesson on what makes American better than the terrorists.
I think either A. you and I are reading different sites, or B. you’re taking the comments way out of context.
Lefty Says: June 3rd, 2005 at 10:28 pm
On Monday John Kerry is going to start presenting the case to congress for Bush’s impeachment. This should be interesting.
Suzanne Says: June 5th, 2005 at 6:24 am
This is a very tough topic, first we know what these people do to our troops. not very nice.
Then, we must remember what this country stands for. What have we always stood for? Do we now throw away our basic principls that we have stood by through many wars, and now change these principle and start doing the old “eye for an eye” theroy?
COMMENT TO NUMBER 4
YOU GOT IT MR JACK
except I am not in the slightest wacko, and I am not a Liberal, remember Moderate!!
and No offence taken.
Joy Says: June 6th, 2005 at 4:54 pm
Suzanne,
The “eye for an eye” was in the context of let the punishment fit the crime, not let revenge happen, and certainly not treat them the way they treat you.
There is some common ground here between Mr. Jack, Suzanne, myself and many others – we don’t think these prisoners should be tortured. It can’t be good for those doing it (and, of course, it isn’t good for those it’s done to). I can understand how the ‘right’ thing to do could become very cloudy and I must say I’ve never been in any combat, so I don’t know what those troops feel like and I won’t deceive myself that I wouldn’t be tempted to do the same thing or something like it. However, I have been in extremely abusive situations and extremely unjust situations where the perpetrator hasn’t had to ‘pay’ the way I, personally, would have preferred at the time-and I found that I only drug myself down to their level when planning and/or focusing on revenge and grew out of it when I made (and continue to make) the conscious choice to better myself and my character by doing what’s right, no matter what.
The point there is that when we lower ourselves to base behavior or approving of it, we are lowering ourselves to the level of those being tortured and our character is only weakened.
Justice must come to the terrorists. We may see it, we may not. Either way, it’s in the hands of those who are or will be appointed to handle these things.
One closing thought; the cry for punishment/consequences for terrorits should be simultaneously just as loud and long as the cry for the same regarding our troops. As well-meaning Americans, we don’t want to tip the fervor scale against fellow Americans.
Javan Says: June 6th, 2005 at 11:09 pm
Okay I just want to point some things…
There is a difference between humiliation and torture people, the pictures showing are U.S army sgt. holding the guy by a leash like a dog isn’t torture. It’s humiliation. Torture is shoving glass tubes under your fingernails and shattering them or puting someones feet in a bucket of water and then electrocuting them. Sure wrapping them in pig guts is gross but it’s hardly “brutal torture.”
Another thing I want to add, has everbody already forgotten that the soul reason these people exist is to kill us? Anybody? Hello……?
I’ve got an idea that’s absolutly perfect. Join the army and go on something as simple as a 1 year tour of duty. Now if you manage to not be blasted to hell by some crazy with TNT strapped to his chest or another jihad crazy driving his pinto loaded with methane bombs towards you at full speed when and IF you come back see if you still think that it’s such horrible torture what we’re doing to them.
And everyone getting a fair trial? If I murdered one of your family members would you still give me a fair trial? If you say yes you are probably lying just becasue you don’t want to be proven wrond. That or you’re the next Ghandi.
Anna Says: June 7th, 2005 at 2:02 pm
Javan,
It sounds like you actually comprehend how stupid it is for us to be in Iraq.
Brandon Says: June 7th, 2005 at 6:44 pm
Anna, good friend, I am trying to gather any sort of sense that you intended out of your last statement.
If you are saying its stupid for us to be in Iraq right now…you obviously don’t know the facts. Do you have any idea what would happen to that place if we pulled our troops out now? Do you have any idea what sort of chaos would ensue without our men there keeping them from ripping eachothers heads off moreso than they already are? Obvously not.
I can respect your stand on the issue, wanting peace and all that idealogy, but its just not possible. Obviously we don’t want to lose any more of our men, but they are doing their jobs for this country and all of them accepted that when they took on their roles.
And just a side not, posting a simple comment without having it supported by any facts simply to insult someone is an incredibly sophomoric thing to do.
Brandon Says: June 7th, 2005 at 7:22 pm
Just to add to a comment made by Antilla the Hun.
“Are you saying that when Super man catches a bad guy that instead of putting them in jail to face justice, that he should simply kill them because they’re bad guys?”
YES I AM! How cool would that be to see Superman actually punish these guys for their crimes!? I relate to Spawn more though. Spawn kills the evil people without a second thought! He even kills SATAN HIMSELF!!
Mr. Jack Says: June 8th, 2005 at 12:24 am
Javan, I met your challenge, before going to west point I served a 3-month tour of duty in Afghanistan, and had some close encounters myself.
But I still have mutual respect for my enemy, even though I don’t particularly like them. I had a buddy of mine who is over in Iraq now, captured by these insurgents, noticed I called them insurgents, and not terrorists, there is a fundamental difference between the two. Anyway, he made it ok, the idiots took him to a cave up in the mountains that we raided the next week. But I noticed that he was tortured for information, he would probably have been executed, without trial, and I’ll never forget the look on his face when we found him. And I would not wish that on any one, Insurgent, terrorist, or otherwise. I believe that to be truly brought to justice, to set an example for the new democracies we’re setting up, and for democracies all over the world, that they should be brought to trial. It’s Justice in its purist form. Not tainted by hate and ignorance.
Now, as stated before, there is a fundamental difference between an insurgent and a terrorist. Terrorists attack civilians to instigate fear amongst a population, something the 9/11 hijackers did extremely well.
An insurgent attacks military units. Most often it is an occupying force. They use Guerilla warfare tactics and unconventional warfare to attack with the goal of demoralizing the enemy to the point they withdraw from the country.
Circe Says: June 8th, 2005 at 2:55 am
Javan,
The reason why we have to have laws and principles of justice is so that we don’t have to behave the way you are suggesting. That is, our laws protect us from ourselves and from doing what we feel like doing. This is because in our rational moments, when not freaking out or in turmoil, we can see that justice is superior to our basic instincts which would lead to our ultimate demise if we followed them. The principles of justice that our nation was founded on do not allow us to retaliate. The advantage of such a system is that it keeps us from punishing the wrong people. Vigilantees tend to punish the guilty and the innocent indiscriminately. It seems to be human nature though to abandon our best principles whenever we feel threatened. A good, principled justice system protects us from ourselves and perhaps this is as valuable as any other function that it serves.
Anna Says: June 9th, 2005 at 1:22 pm
Brandon,
I was not saying that we should just leave Iraq now that we have created a failed state. I was saying that we should not have gone into Iraq in the first place. Iraq CLEARLY was not part of the terrorism problem. That is, until we invaded. It was actually one of the few countries that we had totally boxed in. The UN sanctions had depleted its military strength to nearly nothing (if you think Iraq still had a strong military, you have no idea how well armed it’s neighbors and many other nations are. The world spent over a trillion dollars on weapons this year alone). Since the invasion of Iraq, we have transformed Iraq into a hotbed of terrorist activity. That sounds like failure to me – taking a country that has a negligible role in the world terror picture and turning it into a center of gravity for terrorism. Certainly if a president was committed to solving the terrorism problem, much wiser strategies were available to Bush than those that he has adopted. I may be young, but I can think. And I think that Bush is going about it all wrong.
Lefty Says: June 10th, 2005 at 12:47 am
I bet you are all excited about Bush’s push to renew the “Patriot Act”, aren’t ya? With a name like the Patriot Act, it sort of makes it hard to vote against it.
Suzanne Says: June 10th, 2005 at 6:23 am
There was some law passed today about the topic in Mr. Jacks commentary, I will find it again and post the URL
Suzanne
Suzanne Says: June 10th, 2005 at 6:41 am
I wonder, in regards to -
Myself, Joy and Mr. Jack as to (sorry should not ask but) age range? Generation Era?
I will admit if the two of you admit.
Suzanne
molly Says: June 10th, 2005 at 12:12 pm
I have just come back from a trip to britain. on a television quiz show the question was asked: “what does W in George W. Bush stand for?” the reply that came “Wanker”. there was massive applause and laughter and the adjudicator said he regretted he could not give any points even though it was a better answer than he had on his card.
The rest of the world now believes we are a rogue nation. in some ways I believe I no longer belong in this country. We are essentially being run by Ariel Sharon and those other zionists in the pentagon. –see below
FBI Agents Allege Abuse of Detainees at Guantanamo Bay
By Dan Eggen and R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, December 21, 2004; Page A01
Detainees at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, were shackled to the floor in fetal positions for more than 24 hours at a time, left without food and water, and allowed to defecate on themselves, an FBI agent who said he witnessed such abuse reported in a memo to supervisors, according to documents released yesterday.
In memos over a two-year period that ended in August, FBI agents and officials also said that they witnessed the use of growling dogs at Guantanamo Bay to intimidate detainees — contrary to previous statements by senior Defense Department officials — and that one detainee was wrapped in an Israeli flag and bombarded with loud music in an apparent attempt to soften his resistance to interrogation.
In addition, several agents contended that military interrogators impersonated FBI agents, suggesting that the ruse was aimed in part at avoiding blame for any subsequent public allegations of abuse, according to memos between FBI officials.
The accounts, gleaned from heavily redacted e-mails and memorandums, were obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union as part of an ongoing lawsuit. They suggest that extremely aggressive interrogation techniques were more widespread at Guantanamo Bay than was acknowledged by military officials.
The documents also make it clear that some personnel at Guantanamo Bay believed they were relying on authority from senior officials in Washington to conduct aggressive interrogations. One FBI agent wrote a memo referring to a presidential order that approved interrogation methods “beyond the bounds of standard FBI practice,” although White House and FBI officials said yesterday that such an order does not exist.
Instead, FBI and Pentagon officials said, the order in question was signed by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld in December 2002 and then revised four months later after complaints from military lawyers that he had authorized methods that violated international and domestic law.
In a Jan. 21, 2004, e-mail, an FBI agent wrote that “this technique [of impersonating an FBI agent], and all of those used in these scenarios, was approved by the DepSecDef,” referring to Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul D. Wolfowitz.
Deputy Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said in a statement last night that Wolfowitz “did not approve interrogation techniques.” Whitman also said “it is difficult to determine” whether the impersonation technique “was permissible or not,” but that such a tactic was not endorsed by Rumsfeld.
ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero said in an interview that the incidents described in the documents “can only be described as torture.”
The government is holding about 550 people detained in the war on terrorism at a prison on the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay. Some have been held for nearly three years without charges or access to attorneys. Several dozen have taken advantage of a June ruling by the Supreme Court and petitioned federal courts to challenge their imprisonment.
Some of the FBI memos were written this year after a request from agency headquarters for firsthand accounts of abuse of detainees, officials said.
An overall theme of the documents is a chasm between the interrogation techniques followed by the FBI and the more aggressive tactics used by some military interrogators. “We know what’s permissible for FBI agents but are less sure what is permissible for military interrogators,” one FBI official said in a lengthy e-mail on May 22, 2004.
In another e-mail, dated Dec. 5, 2003, an agent complained about military tactics, including the alleged use of FBI impersonators. “These tactics have produced no intelligence of a threat neutralization nature to date and . . . have destroyed any chance of prosecuting this detainee,” the agent wrote. “If this detainee is ever released or his story made public in any way, DOD interrogators will be not be held accountable because these torture techniques were done [by] the ‘FBI’ interrogators.”
In another e-mail, an unidentified FBI agent describes at least three incidents involving Guantanamo detainees being chained to the floor for extended periods of time and being subjected to extreme heat, extreme cold or “extremely loud rap music.”
Circe Says: June 11th, 2005 at 1:39 am
Read this in an article today and found it intriguing. What do you guys think?
Major General Joseph Taluto said he could understand why some ordinary people would take up arms against the US military because “they’re offended by our presence”.
In an interview with Gulf News, he said: “If a good, honest person feels having all these Humvees driving on the road, having us moving people out of the way, having us patrol the streets, having car bombs going off, you can understand how they could [want to fight us].”
General Taluto, head of the US 42nd Infantry Division which covers key trouble spots, including Baquba and Samarra, also said some Iraqis not involved in fighting did support insurgents who avoided hurting civilians.
He said: “There is a sense of a good resistance, or an accepted resistance. They say ‘okay, if you shoot a coalition soldier, that’s okay, it’s not a bad thing but you shouldn’t kill other Iraqis.’”
Are Iraqis who genuinely don’t want the US to occupy Iraq and fight against our army entitled to be treated as prisoners of war or are they terrorists. Would captured American Patriots (i.e., rebels) during the American Revolution be classified as prisoners of war or terrorists if the standards of today were applied to them? I know that the British classifed them as terrorists (or the 18th century equivalent). But would such combatants end up at Gitmo if they were caught by US soldiers or would the Geneva convention apply?
Mr. Jack Says: June 11th, 2005 at 7:11 pm
first off suzzane, why? I am a product of the late 90′s, im 20 yrs old. Why this matters, I do not know, but that’s just me.
Suzanne Says: June 12th, 2005 at 1:53 am
Why,
Because you think not of those of your era but of my era, and this give me hope for the future of our country
That is exactly why I asked
Guess there is some Samaria in even your generation
suzanne
Suzanne
Suzanne Says: June 12th, 2005 at 2:03 am
Second reply to Mr. Jack
I think it is clear my generation.
Vietnam, Flower Child, but my age, oh recent photo on home page of my site taken two weeks ago, that should tell, (I think it might)
Suzanne
Mr. Jack Says: June 12th, 2005 at 8:02 pm
Ok, for all of you that still think everyone captured is a terrorist, you obviously didn’t hear about the Arab in New York, that was put under arrest, without charge, and taken to Iran for 3 years and tortured to the fullest extent, and as it turned out, there was no evidence linking him to Al Quida or any other terrorist organization. Still think we shouldn’t bring them to justice properly and kill all of them without charge? How many innocents would die then?
Circe Says: June 13th, 2005 at 3:42 am
“We can’t kill them all,” Wellman said. “When I kill one I create three.”
I just read the statement quoted above in a Knight Ridder article by Tom Lasseter that was published today. I find it interesting to read these words of a soldier in Iraq. Many of us have been saying it here, but to hear a soldier say it is powerful.
Lt. Col. Frederick P. Wellman, who works with the task force overseeing the training of Iraqi security troops, said the insurgency doesn’t seem to be running out of new recruits, a dynamic fueled by tribal members seeking revenge for relatives killed in fighting.
The article is entitled “Military action won’t end insurgency, growing number of U.S. officers believe” for those who wish to read the quote in context. There are some good points made in the article.
Brooks Kinch Says: June 15th, 2005 at 9:01 pm
Molly, what the hell is wrong with you?
You’re going to let the crazy British show make you not want to be an American. We are the greatest country on Earth, those who disgaree have not seen what I have seen. I have traveled a great deal of the World. I have seen the homeless and poor in other countries. I’ve seen the Africans who have so little to eat even their farm animals have become emaciated. I know we could produce enough corn in our bread basket to feed the World, and when I think about that it makes me proud to be an American. When I think about the greatness of our country, and of the foresight and moral judgement of our founding fathers, I am proud to be an American. I don’t care if the rest of the World considers us to be a rogue nation. The “rest of the world” isn’t automatically right about everything. The “rest of the world” probably thought we were insane when we fought the British a little over 200 years ago… but now look what has happened, we are the greatest country on Earth. THAT makes me proud to be an American.
And may I remind you all, that had not both my grandfathers died during World War II, than perhaps all of England would be speaking German right now. Have they forgotten so soon the sacrifices we made for them?
And don’t try to pull that “America didn’t win WWII” bullshit on me… just go watch the History Channel.
Suzanne Says: June 16th, 2005 at 7:23 am
Oops, I see Brooks has not done her homework on WW II nor has she read “The Reply to the open letter to Europe from Europe”, with the comments to that commentary. Nor have you read “Publish and Be damned for 2004” and its comments.
Gosh, another one who believes that only America was responsible for the outcome of World War II.
Hey Brooks, not only would all of England be speaking German, so would all of America.
Read your history books before making an assumed fact.
“Assumption is to stupidity as stupidity is to assumption.” by Suzanne Katz
We do have some things in common
We both love our country; we have both traveled the world, though you seem to have only seen the bad parts of other countries, while I have seen both the bad and the good. (We have starving people right here in America)
As to the foresight of our founding Fathers, do you really know about their foresight as in relation to morals and Christianity?
I mean do you really know or do you know only that in which you have been brainwashed to know, or are you again assuming that you know?
Read my commentary “The US Constitution and Christianity” boy that will make you dislike me even more.
Strange, how can someone state that they dislike a person and yet not even know them nor before stating that they dislike a person, not given that person a chance to respond to whatever it is that makes you dislike me.
Actually, I don’t really care if you like me or not,
Why, well it goes something like this,
Now I must relate this to an Art Exhibit, as I am an artist.
During an exhibit, you know if your art is good by the following.
Your art creates an emotion within the person who is viewing your work.
Now this emotion may be a good feeling or a feeling of disgust.
Either way, your art created an emotion within the viewer.
To relate this story with your dislike of me is actually a compliment to me.
If the words I have written on this site, did not create any emotion of any kind within you, then I have failed, but as it is clear they have, then my dear I have succeeded, I made you dislike me by my words, I created an emotion in you I effected you with my words,
And I do not dislike you I do not like you, I feel nothing either way, so you have not created any emotions within me except one – A feeling of being superior to you!
Suzanne
Mr. Jack Says: June 17th, 2005 at 12:11 am
. Brooks, have you been to Europe? THEY take care of their people; Germany for example has virtually no homeless in the streets. Yet in America, virtually every major city has a subculture of hobos. To say that the poor in all other countries is a misconception, while I do agree in many third world countries the quality of life isn’t very great.
And England would not be speaking German, 1 because none of the German occupied countries were forced to change their native languages, and 2, had The U.S not entered the war, Hitler still would have fallen, 1 because he took on too many nations at once, fought a war on 2 fronts, and 2, because his own generals turned on him once they found out about the death camps.
Mr. Jack Says: June 17th, 2005 at 7:20 am
Brooks I admire your patriotism, and I agree that those reasons you stated are what makes America great, However, I can’t help but notice it seems slightly Nationalistic. You fail to see that America, in all its glory, isn’t perfect. You forget, that we used to be very Imperialistic, we slaughtered countless Native Americans. for the first 100 years we had slaves.
once we conquered what we have of north America, we went to create an Island empire, and wound up raping many pacific and Caribbean Islands of their resources, enforcing our way of life on cultures that have existed for hundreds, possibly thousands of Years. I respect patriotism, but don’t mistake it for nationalism and forget that we do have a dark side, just like every one else.
SPC Billy Willis Says: July 16th, 2005 at 9:39 pm
Honestly I didn’t read every response. I’m really bored with people thinking they know what’s going on here. Ya’ll see something on CNN and now you’re an expert on Operation Iraqi Freedom. How do you get information from a man who clames to not speak english, dosn’t know his name, dosn’t know how old he is, dosn’t know who his neighbors are etc… It’s really getting old and frustraiting. We aren’t just stomping out the insurgency. We are doing that but we are preventing future terrorist by changing the culture. It’s going to take time and extensive manpower. It won’t be over tomorrow or even in a couple years. We are having to teach millions of people how to stand in line that have no concept of it. We are dealing with people that don’t think women should wear shoes. Make your jokes guys but you’d get disgusted if you saw it too. So keep in mind the media is going to focus on things that torturing pows and what not but that’s the tip of the iceburg. They also leave out certain facts like they are naked for delousing because every one in Iraq has lice. They are chained because they never stop trying to escape. They are gagged because they won’t stop talking. They are blind folded because they are trying to memorize the buildings structure so they can plan a break out when they get out. So I’ll say it again. Let me fight the war, stay out of my way and don’t try to explain what I’m doing. Ask me and I’ll tell you.
Mr. Jack Says: July 20th, 2005 at 2:36 am
That’s not the torture I was referring to. That’s humiliation. I’m talking about the people we’re sending out to places like Saudi Arabia to torture. Our “ally” seems to take great pleasure in doing our dirty work for us.
And Billy, are you Army or Marine?
joy Says: July 20th, 2005 at 8:17 pm
Oh, but Billy, it’s so much easier to sit here and comment on what you do than to be there doing the real work and seeing the real thing firsthand. Why, that’s what those reporters are for, isn’t it?…To show us what’s really going on over there? How could you, a mere serviceman, know what’s happening? The media are the real experts; or they know the real experts. I’m afraid you’re misguided as to what you’re really doing. You’re obviously duped by the present administration’s regime into thinking you’re actually doing something positive.
Now pardon me while I DISLODGE MY TONGUE FROM MY CHEEK.
In TRUTH- THANK-YOU, Billy, for a more REALISTIC view of what’s going on.
Lefty Says: September 24th, 2005 at 3:36 am
Did anyone read today’s NY Times article entitled “3 in 82nd Airborne Say Beating Iraqi Prisoners Was Routine”? According to the article, it was routine to do things like break prisoners’ legs with baseball bats (before and after the story about abu grahb broke) “just for fun when soldiers got bored.” Interogators instructed soldiers to beat prisoners frequently to soften them up for interogation. Are these soldiers and their officers just absolute total morons or what? Do they not realize how fucking stupid that behavior is? If they need to be told, they are hopelessly ignorant.
Jack Antilla Says: September 26th, 2005 at 6:54 am
Unfortunate this exposes the serious problem with command in my organization.
While I do not know any one personally in the 82nd Airborne I can tell that this is an instance when the CO allowed his anger to get the best of him and those under his command. Lefty, It is not ignorance, it is anger. Do NOT call them morons because you cannot possibly understand their state of mind when they do these things. Usually when they do it for “fun” its revenge. Command seems to have a seriously hard time enforcing any no torture policies towards our POW’s and it’s costing us the war, as when things like this get out to Iraqis, Insurgent Recruiting rates skyrocket, causing more Americans to die, Causing more Americans to get angry and take it out on prisoners, which tell their stories to Iraqis and the cycle continues.
I can tell you this much, the war takes a serious toll on a soldiers psyche. I have been blessed enough to go to the academy where I do not have to go to Iraq until I’ve graduated, but I have heard stories similar to this from my buddies who are there, and I can tell you it’s not because they’re stupid it is because they are angry. They HATE the enemy with every fiber of their being, and it’s cost them their morality.
Lefty Says: September 27th, 2005 at 2:10 am
Jack,
Your points are well-taken. But we must agree that as moral people we can’t tolerate this of our own soldiers. We have no say in how the fighters of other nations behave but we should not tolerate immoral, unjust, and unethical behavior in among ourselves.
Jack Antilla Says: September 27th, 2005 at 2:51 am
I agree lefty that this is absolutely intolerable. My point was to make you see WHY they do it, and just how hard it is to stop it. Command has issued several policies regarding this sort of behavior and it’s punishable by dishonorable discharge. It is extremely hard to contained these situations because our soldiers hate the enemy so much, and Commanding officers Hate them just as much and in cases like the one you described in the 82nd airborne, Command could not control the division CO.
In other words it’s hard to maintain discipline.
I’m not justifying what they’re doing or have done. I despise it with ever ounce of my being, but I wanted you to understand WHY they do it, before you called the troops Morons and things of that nature, because it’s not a problem of the troops, it’s a problem of the war they fight, and the psychological damage it has caused.