Fingers or Wires Crossed?
Ehrin Waaaah taDA! says he won’t go Iraq.
His unit has now gone. His dad is “proud”. His mom says she understands. The “anti-war” (what a strange and misleading name…who is “pro-war”?) groups have a poster boy.
The war in Iraq had already started when Waaaah taDA(!) {”waaaaah! I donwannago” TaDA! “I know what I’ll do! I’ll turn my desertion into a heroic thing!”} joined the Army.
Since he has deserted his unit, this poster boy for the anti-war-in-Iraq crowd is a media sweetheart.
Maybe this sweetheart poster boy would like to transplant his view of “this war” to the ‘insurgents’. If only their leaders were of his ilk, then our real heroes could come home. The ones who actually stuck to their oath and committment could return. Too bad we can’t bottle his cowardice and get the fanatic terrorists drunk with it.
As for Waaaaaaaaaah TaDA!, I wouldn’t trust him in any job, relationship or office. When saying anything regarding committment or responsibility, he may have his fingers, wires, or both crossed.
nutslikebush Says: June 25th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Saw the title and thought the entry was going to be about a president who violated his oath to defend the constitution and flagrantly broke any law he regarded as inconvenient (e.g., wire tapping, raiding bank records etc.)
nutslikebush Says: June 25th, 2006 at 9:59 pm
I wonder if his fingers were crossed when he declared that if ANYONE in his administration had a role in talking to te press about Joe Wilson’s wife (Plame) that they would be sent packing. We know that Rove talked to several in the press about Plame, that he lied to investigators about it (he spoke to Matt Cooper and perhaps Novak) about Plame, that he lied to the american public about it through Scott McClelland, and that he lied to the grand jury about it (before recanting later when it was obvious that he was caught in the lie.). But it doesn’t seem to me that the president has lived up to his promise to fire anyone (that would include Rove, I would presume) who had anything to do with talking to the press about Plame. Just another Bush flip-flop. How 30-something percent of the public could still support him baffles me. They must be completely retarded or just evil themselves.
Joy Says: June 26th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Since it isn’t, what’s your comment regarding the actual subject?
Joy Says: June 27th, 2006 at 7:41 am
C’mon Lefty, you can talk about something other than Bush. Watch out with that infatuation you have with him: it’s looking dangerously like an obsession.
So, do you have any views on the original topic?
kregh99 Says: June 27th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
I guess getting blown to smithereens by IED’s for God and country isn’t all that popular anymore.
Jack Antilla Says: June 27th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
I honestly think this kid is a disgrace to the United states armed forces.
He knew there was a possibility of going to Iraq when he signed on. Especially an officer of the United States Army. If you can’t suck it up and step up to the plate and lead men into battle then don’t sign up.
I think he should be thrown in Jail for wasting government time and money.
Uncle_Sam Says: June 28th, 2006 at 2:29 am
NUTSHELL=IQ of NUT
nutslikebush Says: June 28th, 2006 at 4:44 am
I fervently believe that people should be held accountable for their decisions and actions. I know nothing about the person that your post is about, the facts of the case, etc. But IT IS patently clear to me that Bush and his administration are enemies of the State, are un-american, and should be held accountable for the irreparable damage that they have done to the country, and world, that I love.
ethan Says: June 30th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
Why can’t we do like they did in the war between the states. Take this yellow deserting coward and hang him, or better yet a firing squad should do the trick
nutslikebush Says: July 2nd, 2006 at 2:19 am
I don’t know much about this specific case. But it is my understanding that currently there are over 5000 US troops that are AWOL.
nutslikebush Says: July 2nd, 2006 at 2:23 am
I also understand from a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist and officer in the military (Army) that 10s of thousands of soldiers who have served in Iraq suffer from severe post-traumatic stress disorder and are not capable of returning to duty in the field. Perhaps the fellow that you want shot has a psychiatric issue. I don’t know though.
nutslikebush Says: July 6th, 2006 at 1:12 am
I just read a story about the fellow that your post is about. So he says that he is not against war, per se, and would happily serve in Afghanistan. But he has carefully researched the Iraq war and has concluded that it is illegal. Why not take him at his word? After all, you can only guess randomly (and waste your time in the process) about his motives if you refuse to take him at his word. He certainly is going to serve hard time in prison for much of his adult life now but is unwilling to compromise his morals and be an accomplice to a crime.
Erin is different from the others in that instead of deserting and hiding, he turned himself over to his commanding officer and explained the reasons (quite elegantly, I might add) for his choice. On that topic, if you think that a harsher punishment than a long prison term is necessary, would you apply the same standard to the 5000 other soldiers who have failed to report for duty and ship out to Iraq this year?
WRHiggins SGT Says: July 6th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
True that many have suffered from PTSD, I can’t counter or confirm your number. However, this guy signed up after the war started? What did he think was going to happen? There really are people out there who think that the military is only there to give away free college money, no strings attached? And yes, nutslikebush, the standard does apply to all 5000. Should the standard not apply simply because of the number of offenders? If you don’t agree with his being punished, go sign a contract with ANYONE and see what happens when you renege. I am a soldier who has served in Iraq, and supports Pres. Bush, and believes in what we are doing there, and is not a brainwashed, mindless pawn of the Empirical US Gov’t.
Joy Says: July 6th, 2006 at 8:19 pm
Lefty,
I hope you’re not referring to me in your comment regarding wanting Ehrin shot, as I certainly do not.
Regarding his stand:
This person KNEW THERE WAS A WAR ON WHEN HE JOINED UP in the VOLUNTEEEEEEEEEER Army.
HELLO? Did his oath have a special
“except in the case of wars I don’t agree with” clause?
“I don’t think so, Tim.”
I still would LOVE for him to infuse the insurgents with his outlook so they will ‘extensively research’ this ‘illegal’ war and ‘eloquently’ express why they’ve now decided to stay home. Their eloquence is of a baser nature, which requires a different sort of action than words. I have yet to see words de-activate a bomb.
UNTIL THAT LALA LAND DAY COMES, they need to be stopped with real life methods.
STAYING HOME DOESN’T QUITE CUT IT, as far as I can see.
In a side note:
I’d enjoy reading any and all realistic and effective actions that you propose to get our troops home.
Joy Says: July 6th, 2006 at 8:56 pm
kregh99,
You know the old saying; “War is popular”
right?
Popularity IS why we go to war, isn’t it?
The statement you made seems to infer that only popular wars are right and worth fighting and dying in.
In our country’s history, the Revolutionary War became pretttty unpopular when the pay stopped and the food supply was loooow and it seemed a losing war all around. There were plenty of deserters, not to mention those who just left when their service commitment was up.
The ones who stayed and fought the odds; who fought for what they believed in and looked farther ahead than their own sacrifice; those who fought out of respect and devotion to their commanding officer(s) when their contempt for congress landed with their saliva on the ground- these were the ones who won our freedom.
Committment to duty, sacrifice, honor and, yes, God and country (not the leaders, the country), and your “brothers in arms” around you - these are what matter.
Popularity doesn’t cut it. Never has, never will.
War is hell - even a ‘popular’ one.
zootpotato Says: July 6th, 2006 at 10:13 pm
If this were liberal-led war, the blind conservatives that spew crap all over the internet would be praising Erhen (with an “e”, not an “i”. Way to look like you know what you’re talking about, Joy.) Watada as a couragous man with a spine, who stood up to his commanders and refused to fight a corrupt, illegal war. Instead, you shamelessly attack him.
That’s the problem in this country today. Instead of thinking for themselves, everyone lets their party think for them. Heck, you guys would even find a way to defend Monica Lewinski if she blew Bush instead of Clinton.
Myself, I actually agree with conservatives on this one, he’s doing the wrong thing. Not only did he sign up for the military, he did so while we were fighting the war. Use your head, Ehren.
nutslikebush Says: July 7th, 2006 at 1:57 am
But attacking a country that is not a threat (because they were effectively disarmed in 1991) is a bad idea - especially when it causes 50-100 thousand unnecessary deaths and a trillion dollars of US tax payer money to boot. We made a huge mistake by STARTING this war and the one and only reason that we are staying is to because Bush is embarassed and can’t admit that it was wrong. I am praying for a flip flop. Man I miss the old days when it seemed like the Lewensky scandal was important. I would trade a million Lewenski-level problems for the Iraq mistake. There is simply no denying that EVERYTHING is worse than before Bush was appointed to the presidency by the Supreme Court. But I was encouraged today to hear him say with my own ears that global warming is real and is human-driven and that he is “solving” it (he really did say that today - he is solving the global warming problem). WOW. You guy is a real piece of work.
nutslikebush Says: July 7th, 2006 at 2:05 am
How to get our troop home (aka, the quagmire problem).
1. Ever seen the movie “A day without a mexican”? We do that. Iraqis wake up tomorrow and we are just gone. No explanation. No note. Nothing.
2. We go to the UN and formally apologize to the world.
3. Jeff Gannon (the male prostitute that worked for the White House as a plant in the press corp) announces on his prostitution web site that Bush has resigned from office and is returning to college to study government and history again and try to actually learn a little bit about both topics.
nutslikebush Says: July 7th, 2006 at 2:13 am
Joy,
It drives me nuts that conservatives keep saying stupid things like - “I’d like to hear your plan to get our troops out.” Holy Crap - this is BUSH’S WAR. He and his administration created a crisis from whole cloth. There was no crisis and now there is and it is HIS FAULT. Period. He has single handedly created the world’s most effective terrorist recruiting tool. He is a gift to bin Laden and al Qaeda. They could not have designed a more perfect ally for their cause than Bush. I feel like we are fighting two enemies - islamic fundamentalists and the Bush guys who are mounting an all-out assault against our constituion (under the guise of protecting us - right. Who in their right mind would trust this administration? Patriot Act my ass.) The battle is on two fronts and conservatives seem to only see one of them.
WRHiggins SGT Says: July 7th, 2006 at 3:05 pm
Nutslikebush states: They could not have designed a more perfect ally for their cause than Bush.
Really? Sheehan is just a grieving mother? Suicide bombers can’t wait to sign up when they see protesters. They (terrorists) are the wedge that is dividing this country, not Bush. When they see that for every GI they kill, another rally erupts, they can’t sign up fast enough. Yes, I know that it is a constitutional right to rally, but they do not take into consideration that there are consequences to their actions. I have seen the consequences and it ain’t pretty. Wanna win this war? How’s this for effective PsyOps? Coat our bullets in pigs blood. How many terrorists would want to die unclean if it means not going to Allah? Hell, just saying we’re doing it would probably do the trick.
Back to the subject: Hey, Lt. Watada, if yer scared, say yer scared, but get on the damn plane with everyone else thats scared. Not on the plane? Now you’re charged with missing movement and conduct unbecoming an officer? More like conduct unbecoming a soldier at all, or anyone with integrity. I don’t understand how anyone can defend his actions. He was in a Stryker Combat Brigade !! Even if he was an admin. officer, he would have been a target to terrorists. Mortars don’t discriminate. I really feel sorry for the troops who looked up to him before this. Yet at the same time I’m really glad that he is not leading them into a combat zone.
Joy Says: July 7th, 2006 at 7:03 pm
It’s interesting that when I happen to voice the same opinion as other conservatives, I am apparently letting ‘my’ party think for me, but when ZP agrees with the conservatives on this one - that is practicing free thought…….
And Lefty, what the heck is that about “conservatives keep saying stupid things like…”?
I haven’t heard any other conservative ask that question. I spend most of my time keeping up with my home, schooling, and job responsibilities. I’m not in on some conservative thought loop. I actually have my own thoughts, and I guess other people have the same questions and opinions and they happen to be conservative. I was sincere in my statement regarding your thought on what we do now.
It doesn’t take much intelligence to see that we are in Iraq (even I noticed it), whether or not it’s popular or agreeable (I guess Congress voting that we go to this war has conveniently been forgotten in this case and legality has been confused with agreeability).
I asked what you think we should do because real life calls for real answers. We’re there. Any president you vote for is going to have to do something other than say “It’s Bush’s war”
So, a president you would vote for should do (put your opinion here) to obtain this objective (your opinion here).
If we weren’t in real life:
We could see just puffs of smoke where North Korea and Iran used to be.
We could withdraw our support of any kind from every whining, back-stabbing country.
We would stop buying anything from China.
We would get out of the UN and take care of our own country and then maybe help other countries that didn’t hate beautiful Americans.
There would be no politicians in any party, only statesmen and women who actually put the good of the country before personal gain.
Then again, if we weren’t in real life, none of the present problems would exist and I would live on dark chocolate, fresh water, good wine, seafood and twisting-turning mysteries, while smiling contentedly at my perfect children who could go anywhere in our crime-free town. And progress would be for the good of all affected and not greed and selfish gain.
Darn! I woke up. Here we are back in the ‘real’ world and there are still people who think that my being conservative means that I am a clone of other people who call themselves conservative (even though we agree on some things and disagree on others).
I am automatically lumped in with a blob called “conservative mindset” with attributes that I don’t even recognize as my own. I am, apparently, narrow-minded, bigoted, racist, pro-Bush in everything, incapable of free thought or having any personal opinion. Oddly enough, no one who knows me recognizes this in me.
Ehren Watadadadadadada (did I spell that right?)(my own sense of humor) has done wrong in this case. Even if he is sincere, he is sincerely wrong.
Again:
*He knew there was a war going on.
*The army is volunteer to join; the wars are not.
*Disagreeable and unpopular does not equal illegal.
Joy Says: July 7th, 2006 at 7:24 pm
WE go to the UN and formally apologize to the world?!?!?!?!?!
- for being their wet-nurse?
- for not finishing the job the first time around?
- for not smoking Iran and Korea?
- for giving their people jobs that Americans should have?
- for destroying and then rebuilding their countries?
- for allowing people to kill 2nd and 3rd term pre-born Americans while allowing illegal aliens to take their place?
- for mollycoddling terrorists while punishing and torturing American troops?
You go for it Lefty. You apologize to the world, then bend over and take yours from every stinking backstabbing reprobate country that you seem to want to think is a victim. You’ll know the meaning of victim. You do that, Lefty.
nutslikebush Says: July 8th, 2006 at 2:08 am
Joy,
Remember that old John Prine lyric “Jesus don’t like killing - no matter what the reason for. So your flag decal won’t get you into heaven any more.” Better to be smart than violent. Most of our problems on in the international arenas could be solved by more intelligent decision-making and analysis. But the current administration is working off of a fundamentally flawed model of government. In truth, I think they are working off of a fundamentally flawed model of what it means to be a human being. It seems to me that they are motivated solely by a desire to protect and support the super rich. There is utter disregard for the real problems we face - greed, violence, corruption. We have become a nation of cheaters, over-sexed teenagers, violent bullies (the gangs on our streets reflect the values of our culture - greed, materialism, macho bullshit). Teenagers having sex on video - that is the natural result of a materialistic culture. I am ashamed of our meaness and brutality. I believe in the way of peace. I would rather die than let this world turn me into a violent, cheating, liar. So maybe I am the odd man out. I don’t like our president because I think his values suck. And I think that most of the conservatives who support him are just greedy materialistic, self-worshipping, deluded monkeys.
zootpotato Says: July 8th, 2006 at 3:36 am
The difference between our similar opinions, Joy, is the degree of hatred for his decision, or at least how we displayed it on this site.
While I agree with your opinion, the way you present it is so rediculous, from calling him “Ehrin Waaaah taDA!” (which is a tad childish) to hastily stating that he probably sucks at jobs, love, (life, pretty much), that you’re really no better then the people in charge of thankyoult.com.
While you debate with relative eloquence when you respond to NLB, your top post leaves such a huge impression that you have no clue what the hell you’re talking about, instead repackaging what countless other rightists have already said/thought about Ehren, that you’ll have to excuse me for believing your politics came before actual thought on the subject.
nutslikebush Says: July 8th, 2006 at 12:33 pm
Joy,
My point is, when your solution to a problem is just making things worse, try a different solution. That is the situation in Iraq. Our troops are the fundamental cause of the violence in Iraq. They clearly are not an effective solution. Almost all of the insurgents are ordinary Iraqi citizens who were not terrorists before we arrived. No doubt, a civil war has broken out in Iraq because we destablized their world and infused a major dose of violence. Shia and Sunnis are unleashing horrible violence against each other. But our troops, military bases, and contractors are the catalyst for all of that violence. The US mission was set on a course for failure from the early stages by planners (Wolfowitz, Rummy, Chenney) who simply did not understand anything about the Iraq situation. They may have had “good intentions” (loosly speaking), but they had a flawed theory and flawed data - a devisating combination for people who have so much power.
Joy Says: July 9th, 2006 at 6:20 am
ZP,
My sarcastic and angry way of presenting the original post WAS leaning toward childish. Touche’.
I had just seen a small group of people holding signs supporting EW after his troops deployed, and reacted rather than responded. This is more than just someone doing what they feel is right, this is him putting others lives on the line after training with them.
I do not often maintain well when it comes to watching people parading individuals like this as heroes.
I don’t hate him. I hate the exploitation of his decision; I hate his lack of concern for his brothers in arms…the ones he trained with and for.
Frank statements like yours remind me to regroup and think a bit before blasting; a lesson I may get in my nineties.
I will tell you one thing, though - and I’m serious; anyone who disagrees with me would still want me watching their back instead of him.
My comments regarding his interpretation of committment still stand. I don’t care if he’s the best whatever in the world, if his commitment is nil - what the heck does his skill matter?
Jack Antilla Says: July 9th, 2006 at 8:06 pm
You forgot some people lefty.
You Gave due credit for fucking up to rumsfeld and Co. but you forgot General Casey, the Allied Supream Commander for troops In Iraq. Now, I’ve met my fair share of Shakey Officers in the Army, esp. when I was In Afganistan, but seriously this guy reaches a new low when it comes to fighting a war. He’s stuck in the mechanized war of 91, and can’t seem to get his head out of his ass and realize he’s fighting an ideological war.
another thing that bothers me about Casey, He, like Rummsfeld, accuses the democrats in congress of “cut and Run” yet not to long ago he announced he was going to start reducing the amount of troops in Iraq to about 6 bragaids by september, just in time for what ever it is that happens early november. In a sick twist of iorny this grand scheeme comes out to the fact that he’s pulling out troops faser than the democrats wanted originally. But I guess it’s only cut and run if a democrat says it.
Jack Antilla Says: July 9th, 2006 at 8:09 pm
As for watada, the man whom I have not yet met even though he’s at the same duty station as I am up In Fort Lewis Washington, I can tell you that while his decision is less than honorable, it isn’t just to be some media posterboy like Sheehan and Moore. He’s doing this because he honestly believes in his heart that the Iraq war is unjust, and has said that he would gladly fight in afganistan.
You want to talk about commitment Joy, this man hasn’t broken his commitment, it’s just misplaced.
When Officers and Soldiers of the United states Military are sworn in they take an Oath which can be interpreted and divided. They swear an oath to maintain high moral diciplin, as officers they are expected to set a moral example. but they are also sworn to obey the president and their commanding officers.
Watada believes the war in Iraq is Unconstitutional and Ileagle, His loyalty lies not with the president but with the Constitution and what he believes to be moral Highground. Sometimes the President and the moral highground aren’t the same this makes the oath a bit shakey, and I’ve seen many officers question it.
it’s a philisophical and moral struggle, not an issue of commitment, while I don’t advacate his decision, I advocate that he firmly belies in it and is willing to suffer for it rather than be what he believes to be a puppet for an unjust and personal cause.
“In Truth Lies Victory”
Jack Antilla Says: July 11th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
I think the Oath of Soldiers needs to be re-defined, in bad situations it forces a choice no one should have to make. Support your “moral obligation”, or support your president.
Frankly I believe the oath should be to the constitution and nothing else. It is after all the guiding principle of this country. The only thing I have a hard Time understanding is how it allows for people who know absolutly squat about military operations, never served in the armed forces, and knows absolutly squat about tactics or the art of war; To become Commander-in-chief of the worlds greatest military Juggernaut.
Joy Says: July 11th, 2006 at 7:20 pm
Lefty,
I find it humurous that you state that ‘we’ infused a major dose of violence into Iraq. Yes. I see your point. Sadam’s monkeys infused Iraq with a kinder, gentler…um…persuasion. Yes, I see how the violence, that their country has been steeped in for generations, came right on over with our troops arrival - many years after the fact. Retroactive, right? We are such a superpower, that our effect goes backward and forward. Yes. I see this. It’s all clear to me now.
Joy Says: July 11th, 2006 at 7:33 pm
Jack,
I understand what you’re saying regarding his commitment, however he shouldn’t have joined the Army.
An ounce of prevention and all that…
He shouldn’t have joined and trained and then taken the “I think this war is wrong” stand.
He should’ve stood for his idea of right by staying out of the Army in the first place. I’m skeptical of the idea that he’s not looking for attention. Then why did he join? Why didn’t he stay out? How much attention would he have gotten had he not joined? These are questions that run through my mind.
I agree with your original statement, that he needs to do jail time and I think he should pay back what we spent on him with our tax dollars to be trained only to use it for his ’cause’.
nutslikebush Says: July 12th, 2006 at 3:13 am
Saddam was horrible. As amazing at it seems, Bush has managed to make matters even worse in Iraq than under Saddam. That is an astonishing accomplishment - indeed, it is the major achievement of his administration. He has done plenty of other damage too - but eclipsing Saddam in terms of negative impact on Iraqis’ lives, now that’s a doozey.
Jack Antilla Says: July 12th, 2006 at 3:53 am
he’s facing 7 charges on the military code of justice, which includes desertion. he’s liable to get shot though he probably won’t. If it is a cry for attention, then his daddy must not have hugged him enough as a child because it’s one thats valid to fuck up his life permanently.
and he faces somthing simular to what I may face. I joined the Army to fight terrorism and serve the constatution. but at the same time I feel that the Iraq war does neither. it’s a bit of a catch 22 for people like this, they want to serve their country, but not fight in IRAQ. now I have no problem fighting in afganistan, or Korea and Iran should war erupt with them. I will gladly serve the Constiution of the united states, but loyalty for alot of soldiers ends there.
That is however no excuse to not do as your told by higher ups. Its a fairly common thing I’ve notices amongs Butter Bars and first lutenants. they think becaus they’re officers now they have the rights and privlages of Generals.
Yesterday, I had a chance to talk with the man. He said he joined the army to fight terrorism just as the Iraq war was begining, and at the time he thought it was just but as time went on he reaserched it and now believes it to be illeagle.
I understand his decision, but I don’t support the way he carried it out, disgracing the military and bad mouthing supperriors. He should know the only way he can get away with that is to be a general, and even then you’re taking a gamble with your job.
nutslikebush Says: July 12th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Joy, Your answer implies that if one joins the military and subsequently becomes aware that one is being ordered to do something that is immoral and illegal that one should just follow orders. Are there any circumstances under which a soldier should disobey an order? You probably know that I am of the view that one should always drill deeper into one’s own views and re-examine them. We should always be prepared to abandon our favorite theories and beliefes and change our behavior to fit our new understanding of the situation. I think soldiers (good ones) would do the same - think things through for themselves and refuse to behave in immoral ways even when it involves disobeying orders.
Your view seems to actually track perfectly with the study that John Dean discussed in his recent book entitled Conservatives Without Conscience. He reviewed studies that suggest that conservatives are more likely to be “followers” and drawn to authoritarian personalities.
Jack Antilla Says: July 13th, 2006 at 6:36 am
Lefty. Soldiers aren’t paid to think, they’re paid to kill wether it be moral or not. They’re paid to do their duty and follow orders, and there for a good soldier doesn’t question the orders of their supperiors otherwise we’d have an undiciplined and chaotic military. Remember, Every single human being has a different ideology, if you want to serve in the military you have to leave that at the door and do what your told.
However, High officers such as GENERALS, and possibly some colonals, CAN make such decisions and dig into their sence of morality because they have to lead soldiers. Generals especailly should do this because their words carry alot of weight.
This is where Watada fucked up. he thought that because he was an officer his oppinion matters, let me tell you if you’re a butter bar your oppinion means absolutly squat.
and Don’t go attacking Joys idea of following as the idea of all conservatives.
Her view on this matter pertains to a special case, she has never said that civilians and everyday people should obey thier leaders without question she proclaims that soldier should, and on this I have to agree with her.
Like I said before if every soldier took time to sit and think about wether their job is moral or not, then I can tell you in modern times about 35-40% of the military would be sitting out wars justified or not. Not an effective fighting machine, and it’ll make Iraq look like a perfect war.
nutslikebush Says: July 14th, 2006 at 2:57 am
Jack,
Does that mean that the German soldiers who ran the concentration camps were behaving in a morally acceptable way. i would think that it would have been better to refuse the orders to gas the Jews and catholics. I believe that soldiers are first and foremost humans. After that, they are citizens and third, they are soldiers. My father was in the military and when I considered a military career his advice was, its not a bad job if you don’t mind having ignorant jack-asses telling you what to do all day every day. But he took numerous bullets defending his country. But he was most proud of the few orders that he disobeyed.
Jack Antilla Says: July 16th, 2006 at 6:02 am
Lefty, concentration camps aren’t war, they’re genocide, like leading cattle to slaughter.
It was a slow process that ran like clockwork theres time to question whats going on without your own people dieing.
but if you’re in the middle of a battlefield, ESPECIALLY in the 21st century when an army can advance a hundred miles in less than an hour, you best not question your orders or you’ll get people killed.
war is a live and let die scinario, if you stop to think “gee is this right” oops their goes your buddy and half your platoon.
Watadas decision could quite possibly put his troops at risk because they depend on his leadership wether good or bad, and now they get a new lutenant who they probably never met before, never trained with, and know little or nothing about. Tell me lefty could you put your life in the hands of some one you’ve never met?
an officers duty is to lead and watada failed to complete that duty.
Joy Says: July 19th, 2006 at 7:17 am
Jack,
#37 - Exactly!
Lefty,
Interesting thing about horrible situations…individuals can still shine and stand by their core values right in the middle of them.
There were “Nazi” soldiers who did what they could to help the ones being led to slaughter, and they did it in the position they were in. Their ‘little bit’ made a positive difference in lives.
You asked if there is a time to disobey orders…yes - on a case by case basis.
Ehren Watada was not given an unlawful order. He wasn’t given an inhumane order. He was ordered to do the job he trained for with the troops he trained with.
Maybe he’s just too young to know or see that, oddly enough, it can often be more powerful and effective to live consistently by our core values in the middle of a bad situation while doing the best we can at whatever we’re to be doing, than to refuse to do our job at all.
This wasn’t an either/or situation.
Joy Says: July 19th, 2006 at 7:30 am
Lefty,
Just for gee-whiz…all conservatives don’t fit in that tiny box that John Dean built.
Remember this - labels are for things, not people.
Joy Says: July 19th, 2006 at 7:41 am
Jack,
Regarding your meeting Watada; who, what, when, where, why…how?
Jack Antilla Says: July 20th, 2006 at 12:47 am
I met him a few weeks ago at my new Duty Post In Fort Lewis, Had some work to do near where he’s being held so I decided I’d Pay him a visit.
He said he had been thinking about Iraq for a while, and came to the conclusion it was an unlawfull war. When I told him it’s his duty to lead troops, he just said it was also his duty to set a “moral” example. He said he’d go to Afganistan without hesitation, then I talked to him for a while about my Tour over there. I didn’t get to talk to him much after that, I was still on duty. While I don’t agree with his decision I do respect it. He FIrmly believes what he’s doing is right, and as he told me he isn’t looking to be a poster boy like sheehan and moore, and told me he’d gladly fight in afganistan, just not Iraq which he believes is a powerplay by george bush. all in all it was a decent talk that got me thinking about the Oath we take when we become soldiers, and agian when we become officers. It comes down to supporting 3 things, The COnstitution, The President, And Moral Judgment. and Sometimes those 3 don’t get along, it splits your oath.
Watada did this knowing it would ruin his life, but he did it anyway so he has my respect, however I still don’t agree with the decision.
WRHiggins SGT Says: July 21st, 2006 at 1:38 am
Jack,
Watada has your respect for doing something that he knew would ruin his life? The Unabomber firmly believed that what he was doing was the morally right thing also. Respect him? P.S. I’m calling your bluff. You’re a liar and a f(l)ake. You speak like someone who MAY have once been in the Army, or knows someone who is,(perhaps a dependent?)but NOBODY calls it a “Duty Post”. It’s a duty station, (for future reference). And for you to have met Watada where he is being held is B**lsh*t. Unless you’re an MP, which I know you are not, you wouldn’t be able to get near anyone being held. They are kept under guard, genius, and if you are the DOD Civilian, doing work for the Gov’t, you would be escorted anytime you came in the same building as someone being held. And wanting to just “pop in and say ‘Hi’” won’t get you in the door. To saying you sat down and talked with someone being held is crap, dude. No one would risk you passing a shank, drugs, or worse to anyone being held just so that you could sit and chat for a bit to appease your own curiosity.
WRHiggins SGT Says: July 21st, 2006 at 2:22 am
“I, (state your name), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of Second Lieutenant, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of The United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter. So help me God. ”
That’s the Oath officer’s take on acceptance of commission. Not “The Constitution, The President, And Moral Judgment”, as stated by Jack.That’s the oath Watada spit on. Not much different than Kerry throwing his medals (ribbons, actually)to the ground to protest the Viet Nam war. We are fighting a war against enemies both FOREIGN and DOMESTIC. Just to remind everyone, after Saddam, there was a void filled by Al Quaeda in Iraq. All of which fall under the category of “enemies”. A liberal can (and likely will) say that we created the void. Oh well, You break, you buy it. Sh*t happens and the world, and war, is not predictable. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that crap. Speaking as a soldier, pulling all the troops out of Iraq (The liberal answer) is exactly what Clinton did in Somalia. This encouraged Al Quaeda (it was this that caused them to refer to the US as a paper tiger)and has emboldened them to continue their terrorist actions. It is not an accident that innocent iraquis are killed more frequently than US troops. A-Q deems iraqis legitimate targets for no other reason than to break the will of the American people. And judging from what I hear, they’ve broken the will of approx. 48%. As long as Air America and other liberal news outlets continue to bash Bush on Iraq and parade numbers of lives lost in front of the world (”Look at us, we’re paying close attention to you, A-Q)A-Q will continue their campaign. What have they got to lose? Certainly not votes. The worst thing that could happen would be if a Dem wins in ‘08, gives in to pressure, and pulls out of Iraq. You think it’s a quagmire now? Just wait till we leave a vacuum like Viet Nam. Lib’s are quick to compare this war to viet nam, and then attempt to fulfill that prophecy by pulling out and leaving a vacuum. We pulled out of V Nam so fast and the S. Vietnamese could not defend themselves, in swoops N. vietnam, and all of our losses were for nought. This is exactly what the lib’s would like to see happen in Iraq. just so they can say, “see, I told you so.”
Joy Says: July 21st, 2006 at 4:44 am
Well now - there’s the oath that I said.
It still doesn’t have that “except for wars that I don’t agree with” clause in it, does it?
Jack Antilla Says: July 21st, 2006 at 5:48 pm
Higgins I was refering to the soldiers oath.
I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”
and Moral judgement comes in with the soldiers creed, as well as contracts, etc when one goes to enlist, perhaps you remember it when you had to fill out that ungodly long questionair, memorize The articles of the uniform code of justice dealing with fraudulent enlistment, AWOL, and desertion. No matter if you enlist or go to an academy, they make sure you have moral judgment.
And watadas decision and Kerry’s are Completly different. Kerry atleast faught in the war, his decision to throw his ribbons didn’t put troops at risk, watadas soldiers now have a new officer leading them that they probably never met before, while they’ll follow his orders anyway, they havn’t learned to respect him yet.
Frankly I agree with you pulling out isn’t the answer, the answer is to put more troops in Iraq, maybe then we can get something that maybe closly resembles security over there.
Jack Antilla Says: July 21st, 2006 at 5:49 pm
And no, he has my respect for standing up for what he believes, even If I disagree with it.
WRHiggins SGT Says: July 21st, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Jack,
You leave a lot of unanswered questions. I’ll drop the character assassination, that’s really not my style, usually.
1. Which part of the Soldier’s Creed refers to moral judgment, the part about always placing the mission first? Or standing ready to DEPLOY, engage and destroy the enemies of the United States?
2. I don’t recall having to memorize any UCMJ articles, however I do recall memorizing articles of the Code of Conduct. Again, memorizing articles of the UCMJ won’t lead one to become a person of moral conviction. bad argument, try again.
3. Please forgive my ignorance on this one, I’m enlisted…Do officers take the officer’s AND soldier’s oaths? (questions pending)
4. Signing a contract doesn’t imply that you are a moral person. You state,”they make sure you have moral judgment.” Huh? Whose Army are you in, man? Watada is not the only bonehead in a military prison. If you think someone out there is making sure our soldiers have moral judgment, it’s after the enlistment (Thank an NCO), not before.
5. I take offense to your implication that his soldiers will follow an officer with whom they have not trained and, as you state, “learned to respect” yet. Following the orders of an officer whom you do not know, and have not trained with IS respect. And I have no doudt that their new L-T will earn the CONFIDENCE of his troops. Especially compared with the compunction of Watada. He probably would have been one of those who when the mortars start falling in, runs and hides before making sure his troops have all gotten to safety. ( I had one of those, and we still RESPECTED him. And as time went on, he gained our confidence…again).
Man, I’m long-winded aren’t I?
WRHiggins SGT Says: July 21st, 2006 at 9:29 pm
Jack,
You state he has your respect for standing for what he believes, even if you don’t agree.. Again the Unabomber/McVeigh/Al-Quaeda in Iraq comparison, still applies. Do you respect them just because they are willing to stand for what they believe? How morally repugnant does a person have to be to NOT garner your respect?
Damn, there I go again with the character assassination. My apologies…but you still have to answer the question.
Jack Antilla Says: July 23rd, 2006 at 12:55 am
When DId you Enlist Higgins? I remember before I went to sign my Contract They had me memorize Everything about fradulent enlistment, Desertion, and Awol, and perhaps Im worn it probably wasn’t the soldiers creed, but I do disticntly remember reading the same line over and over, “must be in good physical and moral helth.”
The Oaths you take depend on what path you take, those who only go to westpoint take the oficers oath only. Those who enlist and get theri commision take both, and those who enlist but later go to westpoint take both.
And yes, watadas troops will follow their new LT. They have little choice in the matter, though wether or not they like him, trust him, or even know him is a different story. Perhaps I should re-phrase, they’ve learned to respect the chain of command.
And perhaps your MEPS was different than mine, that or your enlistment process was different, what’s your MOS? or better yet, what was your original MOS?
WRHiggins SGT Says: July 23rd, 2006 at 3:37 am
Jack, I enlisted in Dec ‘99. And the line you refer to is ” of good physical and MENTAL health”, not moral health. The point is, you have caused for me to reread my contract, which I recently renewed for another 5 years. Joy is right, Watada either had his fingers crossed when he took his oath, or the guy has some wires crossed, which may mean he is not of good mental health.
I’m an 88M20, Heavy wheeled vehicle operator, although I am currently acting as more of an 88N in my present job.
Quit dodging Jack, and answer the previous Q’s. For instance, Joy’s Q in #40. Only this time, try to be convincing.
Jack Antilla Says: July 23rd, 2006 at 6:10 pm
sorry, appears my other commment didn’t get through.
as to your question, yes I respect peoples oppinnions, but like most people I do draw the line at murdering for your beliefs. call me a hippocrate if you want but I do believe in free will to point.
WRHiggins SGT Says: July 23rd, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Jack,
Gotta call you out again. You are making it rather easy, ya know.
1. On 9 July, your post (#28) states you never met Watada
2. On 20 July, your post (#41) states you met him a “few weeks ago”
Either you don’t know how that whole calendar “thingie” works, or you’re a liar, or maybe you’ve got some wires crossed yourself.
Watching a videotaped interview on Watada’s website doesn’t count as having “met” him.
11 days, roughly a week and a half, doesn’t equal a “few” weeks. Not many people could make that mistake, so which is it. Did you lie in #28, or were you mistaken in #41?
WRHiggins SGT Says: July 23rd, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Jack,
Gotta call you out again. You are making it rather easy, ya know.
1. On 9 July, your post (#28) states you never met Watada
2. On 20 July, your post (#41) states you met him a “few weeks ago”
Either you don’t know how that whole calendar “thingie” works, or you’re a liar, or maybe you’ve got some wires crossed yourself.
Watching a videotaped interview on Watada’s website doesn’t count as having “met” him.
11 days, roughly a week and a half, doesn’t equal a “few” weeks. Not many people could make that mistake, so which is it. Did you lie in #28, or were you mistaken in #41?
kolran Says: July 23rd, 2006 at 11:44 pm
Nutslikebush,
The people who will not sacrifice equallity for freedom will end up with neither
-Anonymouse (I read it in the paper, threw the paper away, and forgot who they quoted)
In response to post #1
Joy Says: July 30th, 2006 at 1:12 am
Jack,
What’s the name of the main gate?
What’s the bldg where most of the in/out processing is done?
Where’s the best lunch ‘inside’?
Which is cheaper; gas on or off Fort Lewis?
Just wondering.
kolran Says: August 18th, 2006 at 10:50 pm
Jack is not with us anymore…