The Embryonic Stem Cell Lie
Embryonic stem cell research that we hear so much about is nothing more than a promise of what could be. That’s the little white lie of the left. While real discoveries and breakthroughs using adult stem cells and umbilical stem cells are barely getting noticed in the left-wing media, any mention of what embryonic stem cell research “might” do is getting front page coverage.
That’s not to say that embryonic stem cell research couldn’t yield positive results. Right now there are just not enough embryos available here in America to do the work….and that’s the big lie. For now, let’s leave aside the fact that embryos could be obtained outside of the United States.
According to recent estimates, there are about 400,000 embryos stored in fertility clinics around the country. Unfortunately it will take millions of eggs to conduct the type of research that bio-tech firms want to do. Where will those eggs come from. From “donors” according to the bio-tech industry, but lets be real. Missouri’s Amendment 2 allow for compensation to “donors” to harvest their eggs. So what kind of woman is going to undergo a potentially dangerous procedure to “dontate” her eggs to scientific research? Well, she’ll be young, she’ll be hard up for cash and she’ll probably be black. That’s why black conservatives in Missouri are starting to weigh in on amendment 2.
In “An Open Letter of Warning” from African American Leaders in Missouri the leaders ask, “Where will eggs come from? The answer is from young vunerable women, with the majority of them being African Americans…” I wonder how Claire McCaskill is going to sell that to black voters. Amendment 2 is a bad idea for Missouri and America and the more McCaskill pushes for it, with the help of Michael J. Fox, the more she is going to give black voters in Missouri pause to consider an alternative to again voting for a Democrat who supports an Amendment that will prey upon poor black women.
nutslikebush Says: November 2nd, 2006 at 10:15 pm
You really have no earthy idea what you are talking about. You sound like those moronic talk radio fools who do not hesitate to mislead the ignorant - just pissing in the pool of knowledge. This is just such a sack of shit it is amazing. You just throw crap out there. How can I keep up when all you have to do is make up lies. I could spend all of my time just correct lies that you make up. Please slow down the lie factory man. And if you really believe the stuff that you are saying, how did you get so lost? It seems like you would have to be trying to be wrong in order to be this wrong.
nutslikebush Says: November 2nd, 2006 at 10:51 pm
“Unfortunately it will take millions of eggs to conduct the type of research that bio-tech firms want to do.” - patently false. where in the world would you get such an idea from? This is made-up
“Where will those eggs come from.” Nope. Only those already abandoned in fertility clinics can be used. Dozens of “spares” fertilized eggs are produced every time someone goes in for fertility treatments. Once the couple gets pregnant, the spares are destroyed.
“From “donors” according to the bio-tech industry, but lets be real.” Donors must be those who have already decided to give up the frozen eggs. The donor is explicitly forbidden from monetary compensation according to the Amendment.
“Missouri’s Amendment 2 allow for compensation to “donors” to harvest their eggs.” No it doesn’t. The clinic can be though. But the donor can’t receive money. Read the damned Amendment!
“So what kind of woman is going to undergo a potentially dangerous procedure to “dontate” her eggs to scientific research?” This is a lie for the reasons stated above.
“Well, she’ll be young, she’ll be hard up for cash and she’ll probably be black. That’s why black conservatives in Missouri are starting to weigh in on amendment 2.” here you are just trying to capitalize on people’s paranoias and fears. But you are not telling the truth.
nutslikebush Says: November 3rd, 2006 at 11:56 am
Buck,
If you sleep at night then you have no conscience at all.
Joy Says: November 3rd, 2006 at 4:00 pm
Sooooo….maybe I missed something.
What are the known, proven, and accurately documented successes of embryonic stem cell research against Parkinsons, again?
Thank-you.
Joy Says: November 3rd, 2006 at 4:32 pm
Well now, I haven’t read Missouri’s Amendment 2, so I’m just going to comment on an interesting point that “nutslikebush” brought up:
“The clinic can be (compensated for harvested eggs) though”
I’ll tell you, that just puts my vote of confidence right in this Amendment. If I can’t urge people to vote for ‘the clinic’(s) to get EVEN MORE MONEY out of this ongoing scam, I don’t know what my purpose in life is. It makes my heart glad to see this modern-day snake oil cure-all drawing more and more money into greedy people’s coffers.
Here’s my endorsement:
Support keeping your mind so open that your brain falls out! Support this Amendment to throw away even MORE money toward unproven methods that maybe, might, possibly head in a forward direction….someday!
(Aside…how does this fit into the “we’re for the common man” theme of the libs? Oh, shut up? Oh, ok Oh! That’s right! You know how to spend our money much better than we do. Hey, who are THESE people? Oh, yes, I can see their badges…they’re the thought police. I’ve dared to use rational thought regarding a “highly controversial” matter, and they must attempt to re educate me with ridicule and character defamation. Jack “just the facts” Webb is in solitary down the hall.)
Only in this century have I noticed news media’s zealous (read ‘dangerously irrational’) backing of a Dr. Gimme’s famous snake-oil cure-all.
nutslikebush Says: November 4th, 2006 at 2:17 am
Hi Joy,
It is one thing to say that this research, which is truly in its infancy (so to speak), has not yet produced any cures. But to think that it is devoid of any possibility of teaching us a great deal both about the fundamental biology of cells and disease processes is naive too. Both sides have misrepresented their evidence in my opinion. I agree that we should be careful not to overstate what we know. But we must be equally careful not to ignore opportunities that every cell biologist recognizes as a breakthrough opportunity. Just think, just a few years ago we did not even know that these types of cells existed or anything about them. Now we know that they hold the mysteries of how genes orchestrate the development of an entire human being from a single cell to trillions of cells that work together to make the person.
I also want to say something about adult stem cells. I work on adult stem cells everyday in my lab, as I have said here before. Ethically, there is no difference between an adult stem cell and an embryonic stem cell. Both have the full genome in them. The only thing that prevents an adult stem cell from being pluripotent (i.e., capable of becoming any type of cell in the body) is after a cell undergoes a several division cycles, several genes turn off that normally would permit the cell to become any type of cell. Cells have more and more restricted fates as they undergo more divisions. But essentially, every cell in your body is morally equivalent to a stem cell. All trillion of them.
As for the money that clinics can receive. It can only amount to the expense of storing the cells. There will be no profit in that. They do make huge profits, however, in fertility treatments and inseminations. But that is an entirely different issue.
nutslikebush Says: November 4th, 2006 at 2:24 am
On another note, I hope that you all heard that the administration actually published on the internet all of the crucial engineering tricks involved in producing a nuclear weapon. The Iraqi documents that the right-wing bloggers insisted on having access to so that they could search for evidence of WMD in Iraq included, in arabic, pre-1991 info on how to overcome obstacles to engineering nuclear weapons. In other words, if al-qaeda or Iran didn’t know how to solve the difficult problems involved in creating nukes, the administration handed them all of the know how they needed - in arabic so they wouldn’t even have to translate it!
Can you think of a clearer example of incompetence? That is just astonishing! Fortunately the NY Times alerted the government and the info was removed today. Unfortunately, Iran and al-qaeda etc undoubtedly already downloaded all of the files since they have been publicly accessible to anyone with an internet connection for the past two years.
Joy Says: November 7th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
I asked about Parkinson’s because my dad’s friend was told that embryonic stem cell research is very near a breakthrough to eradicate Parkinsons. Not cool.
Joy Says: November 7th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
nlb,
What do you mean when you say that every cell in our body is morally equivalent to a stem cell? Does that mean that they don’t carouse and shoot up the town? Or that they quietly do their job and try to keep maverick cells from taking over?
Also, what type of cells are found in bone marrow? Have they divided so far as to be only useful for one purpose?
How about sperm cells? What will they become, all by themselves?
Swim instructors?
I obviously need some help with what you’re saying.
Floyd Abrams Says: November 10th, 2006 at 3:17 am
What I meant by “every cell in our body is morally equivalent to a stem cell” is that each cell contains the full complement of your DNA - your entire genome. Every cell in your body has all of the genetic information necessary to make a complete copy of your phenotype (notice that I didn’t say “you” because you are a different copy of the phenotype than it would be). Molecular signals in non-stem cells prevent most cells from expressing sub-groups of genes - they are supressor signals. Adult stem cells are nearly exactly like embryonic stem cells in 99.99% of their properties. What I don’t understand is why those who oppose embryonic stem cell research don’t also oppose adult stem cell research. Not that I want to get you hot and bothered up about adult stem cell research, since that is what I do for a living.
BTW, I assume that you caught the news yesterday about the advances in the use of cell transplantation to the retina to restore vision in blind mice (ps, there’s a very good chance that this will work in humans too since the mouse retina is very similar to the human retina). It was published in Nature yesterday.
Sorry to not reply earlier but I can’t find the discussion threads on this site easily since the reformat.
Joy Says: November 10th, 2006 at 9:01 am
Ok, I’m following you. Morally the cells are just cells doing their cell thing. The moral question actually comes in on the effects of their extraction. Embryonic stem cell research cannot be done without ending human life in it’s initial stage. Not potential human life, as you know, but complete human life. Adult/somatic stem cells can be taken without death to the individual from which they are taken.
Now, I realize that the argument is that the frozen embryos are all going to die anyway, so why not use them for research. Gruesome choice to me.
Personally, I’m a bottom line person and think that people shouldn’t be making humans they’re not planning on raising or making sure are cared for at the very least…not that I don’t understand the desire for offspring, but at what point do we stop with fulfilling OUR wants at the expense of others? Human life seems like a pretty obvious place to me.
Even with that last paragraph aside: in actuality, when all the frozen embryos are gone, will those in favor of John and Jane citizen paying for embryonic stem cell researchers really step up to say…”Well, we ran out of embryos now. I guess that’s that” ?
Isn’t it more likely, given our humanity and all, that the old phrase “give ‘em an inch and they’ll take a yard” fits this scenario
i.e “Where can we get more embryos for research?” Where would the supply come from to keep up the research, which looks to be wanted for eons to come…I mean, after the research there will, of course, be the desire to actually use them to cure all the diseases, won’t there? Are there so many people donating their offspring’s embryos that the supply will flow abundantly from that source alone?
I’ll pause. I’ve asked enough questions and now wait for your comments/answers.
Floyd Abrams Says: November 10th, 2006 at 11:59 am
Last week’s edition of This American Life was remarkable. I listened to it last night and was blown away.
http://www.thislife.org/
The title is: What’s in a Number? 2006 Edition.
It was a careful, non-partisan, and beautifully articulated examination of the Lancet study which examined the death toll in Iraq that can be attributed to the US invasion. One of the primary people interviewed was Marc Garlasco, former chief of high-value targeting at the Pentagon. He is fascinating and insightful. He selected the targets and then went to Iraq to examine how accurately his targetting was and gathered some information about the collateral damage. His views on the civilian death toll might surprise you. If you do listen to this podcast, I think that you will find that your hour is well spent. It is the story titled: What’s in a Number?
2006 Edition.
Floyd Abrams Says: November 11th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
Joy,
Sorry again for the delay in my reply. I am having a devil of a time keeping track of threads now on this blog. Your questions are excellent ones and I think that we actually agree on many points. Let’s start with those. I too am stridently opposed to generating embryonic material for the purpose of stem cell research or therapy. I would only support using blastocysts that are already doomed. There is a new technique that allows one to take a single cell from a blastocyst, save the blastocyst, and use the single cell to create millions (or billions or trillions) of daughter stem cells from that one cell. The technique for doing this was publised about 3 months ago and is being studied and confirmed in many labs now. So one can with a single cell create a virtually infinite number of new stem cells for research and therapy. With a small sub-set (a hundred or so) of the current population of doomed blastocysts being stored in IVF clinics, one could have enough genetic diversity and cell to make all of the stem cells that researchers could ever possibly want. You have to keep in mind that a single cell can be used to create an infinite number of daughter cells. Perhaps most lay people didn’t know that. I thought they did. But I often mistakenly assume that people know things that they don’t know.
Joy Says: November 13th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
I don’t think I can say what most lay people know, except their day-to-day affairs, so I will only speak for myself. I will read up on what you’ve said and return with comment
Joy Says: November 16th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
While I’m researching, Lefty,NLB,FA - or whoever the flitterdygibit you are - would you respond to the question regarding stem cells take from bone marrow? (my comment, dtd 11/7)
John Says: January 17th, 2007 at 4:34 am
You really have no earthy idea what you are talking about. You sound like those moronic talk radio fools who do not hesitate to mislead the ignorant - just pissing in the pool of knowledge. This is just such a sack of shit it is amazing. You just throw crap out there. How can I keep up when all you have to do is make up lies. I could spend all of my time just correct lies that you make up. Please slow down the lie factory man. And if you really believe the stuff that you are saying, how did you get so lost? It seems like you would have to be trying to be wrong in order to be this wrong.
nutslikebush, all you said in your first comment was I disagree, lol