What IS the big deal?
Homosexual activists want to change the law so that homosexual ‘couples’ have the same status as married heterosexual couples. The battle cry is “the same rights as all Americans”.
As I mentioned in a comment…
Let’s be REAL CLEAR here:
No one is refusing homosexuals the right to vote.
No one is putting them in jail or prison for blatant disregard for the law.
No one owns them or can claim them as property.
No one is rounding them up and putting them in slums or concentration camps.
No one is forcing them to wear a sign saying “I’m a homosexual”.
No one is rationing their food.
The government is not requiring them to be exterminated.
They are not being identified and sent to the front lines in Iraq.
There is not a government mandate for them to be publicly ridiculed.
Our troops do not raid their houses or businesses and shoot them.
Our police protect them and our fire fighters save them; in fact, they ARE police and fire fighters and soldiers and doctors and lawyers and any in occupation that they choose.
Public school, paid for by our tax dollars, has curriculum that supports their lifestyle as “alternative” and encourages embracing “diversity”.
Our children are taught in elementary school that the homosexual lifestyle is normal and acceptable.
So, what IS the big deal? Why the big hubub and fit-throwing over the activists not getting what they want?
Who has the problem here? The average joe and jane American living their everyday life
or the activists wanting their own way, and pointing fingers and calling names?
Again, let’s be clear:
This is not about basic human rights.
So, what is it REALLY about?
You tell me.
The Other Side Says: January 22nd, 2007 at 6:07 pm
its about homophobia and people’s utter disdain towards a harmless community. same-sex marriage bans just perpetuate the hate towards homosexuals and keep them from gaining valuable benefits that spouses share. they do have rights, but they still feel repressed.
Kolran Fett Says: January 23rd, 2007 at 2:47 am
Nice comment. I completely agree. On a different note. Everyone has probably heard that Hillary is running. If she gets elected it’s estimated that suicide in the united state will increase by 49.8%
Kolran Fett
Joy Says: January 23rd, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Other Side,
Which “people” are you referring to who have “utter disdain towards a harmless community”?
Would you be referring to those who support abortion in the last 2 trimesters of pregnancy? (You know, after there’s been a heartbeat, little fingers, toes, my gosh! an actual b b b baby!)
I suggest you look very closely and listen very closely to the stand that ardent homosexual “rights” ACTIVISTS have regarding abortion in the last 2 trimesters of pregnancy and then come back and intelligently comment regarding your so-called “harmless community”.
If you think “they still feel repressed”, I wonder how much compassion that encourages in them for those who can’t speak for themselves.
And please leave the cliches and buzz-words out; I’d like to hear what YOU really think and why.
I have yet to hear of devotion so total to the homosexual ‘rights’ cause that the activists are willing to die for it, if need be, to help their bedfellows get whatever ‘rights’ they ‘feel’ they’re denied. Perhaps you have?
The Other Side Says: January 23rd, 2007 at 7:35 pm
Joy, we’re not talking about abortion. We’re talking about same-sex marriage and homosexual rights.
I find it amusing that the anti-same-sex marriage advocates, e.g. kolran and joy, keep bringing up some liberal conspiracy. It is true, I have some liberal beliefs that drive my attitudes about this subject. But I have never heard of any mass liberal conspiracy to gain votes or rights for some fake community. I do believe that homosexuality is innate and is as strong as being heterosexual.
What I think and what I see regarding the same-sex marriage debate is a lack of understanding of one group of people. As seen in posts on the other article about same-sex marriage, people still hold strong negative and offensive beliefs about homosexuality. Why is that?
I see politicians using propaganda about homosexuality that furthers negative attitudes and spurns the legislation. It is unfortunate that homosexuals need to prove thier point because same-sex marriage is already illegal. They are dealing with an uphill battle that is difficult to undo. It is easy for conservatives to push the movement away because they have the law on their side. How can the homosexuals gain their MARRIAGE rights if people from the opposite side are totally and completly against them?
It would be fine if their were, to me, valid arguments against same-sex marriage. I tried to understand the conservative arguments and see that most of them are based off of religion. Because most of my beliefs aren’t, then I can’t fully grasp how strong those attitudes are. But affecting a group of people based on two thousand year old arguments from a different society remain difficult to swallow. What about meeting a homosexual and talking with them, while not feeling sorry for them. Rely somewhat on experiences instead of purly on a book to drive your attitudes. What if the Bible, Koran or whatever is wrong about homosexuality?
Religious beliefs are difficult to change, thats one of the unfair aspects of this debate. How can the homosexual rights activists prove thier point if one side bases their beliefs on religion? I see this unfair debate and have become frustrated with how easily homosexuality is being discredited. No matter the arguments for same-sex marriage, religion always trumps them with morality. Religion is easy to fight for becuase of how deeply it is held. My reasons for my attitudes are for equality, so even though I feel strongly about it, it can never be as strong as feelings of religion. That does not mean that my side of the debate is any less, it just means that I may have a more open mind about the subject. I see this debate as unfair to homosexuals and their pursuit of MARRIAGE rights which is one of the reasons for why I continue to try and make my points. Try and empathize with homosexuals and the fact that they cannot receive the benefits of marriage along with constant criticism of their lifestyle.
Jonathan Says: January 23rd, 2007 at 11:40 pm
Joy - nice attempt at misdirection and pointless obfuscation. What the hell does abortion have to do with homosexuality, or the rights of homosexuals? Instead, I ask you to answer Other Side’s statement and to ACTUALLY ADDRESS THE ISSUE - why are homosexuals denied the same marital benefits that heterosexuals enjoy?
nutslikebush Says: January 23rd, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Joy,
Are you saying that homosexual couples have abortions - especially in the final 2/3s of gestation? That makes no sense unless there have been fertility advances that I am not aware of. Also, why lump the final two trimesters together? By the way, I love babies and children in general - that’s why I adopted some. So don’t bash me on that.
John Says: January 24th, 2007 at 1:39 am
Same sex couples have all the ame rights as heterosexual couples. for instance all males have the right to marry a women. visa versa.
and in most states it is illegal for homosexual couples to get married.
even illegal for a heterosexual man to marry a homosexual man…..
this is all about gays trying to get special privledges…..
Ant Robertson Says: January 26th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
“So, what is it REALLY about?”
I kinda thought that was pretty much self evident.
It’s about the right have the same status as married heterosexual couples. Pretty simple really.
All you’ve done is list all the current rights they do share and ignored the one they don’t. Therefore they clearly do not have “the same rights as all Americans”.
Therefore it’s pretty specious to be intimating that they have nothing to complain about - how would you like it if you were given all the rights inherent in a society that everyone else shared except for one on the basis that you lived in Kansas? I’m fairly confident that the one ommission of a right would become pretty important to you, a focal point if you will - no matter how many other rights you did share that you could list.
So yeah, back to where I started, what’s all this about? The denial of a right, any right. Pretty self evident…
“this is all about gays trying to get special privledges….. ”
And sorry but that’s a pretty silly comment. What’s “special” about having the same rights as everyone else!?!
shannon Says: January 27th, 2007 at 3:30 am
To Kolran: Hopefully the suicide rate will be the 49.8 % will be the Republicans of this country! And you agree that this is a right, “No one is putting them in jail or prison for blatant disregard for the law” Now to me, and I could be terribly wrong, if there is a law that I am breaking by loving someone that is a liberty taken away from me.
To Joy(and you are my favorite to run through the ringer): A life is a life is a life, period. If you take abortion away only the wealthy can have them which leaves the poor to go to a butcher and risk thier own lives. Whose life is more important, the Bible says “thou shalt not kill” not “well, it is okay to kill a pregnant teenager, or a Muslim, or an innocent child” So you draw your conclusions from that one. Your community supports the death penalty, war, poverty and countless of other murderous things in this society. But, beat your Bible a LITTLE harder and tell me that it is okay to kill ANYONE. The Lord did giveth and the Lord will taketh away, not a court or you or anyone else. You need to look to the Lord to have that hate taken away from you. I can play the Bible game all day long. Did you go out today and fight for the little black child that was gunned down in a drive by? Did you go and comfort his mother? Did you do anything to stop the straight boy from killing Matthew Sheppard? Did you comfort his mother? The Bible says also to turn the other cheek, I suppose that is what you have done. Do you go to Africa and help children who die daily from AIDS and and malnutrition. If you want to be an activist for life, well you have to support all of the above and then some.
There is also this Bible verse if you need help:
And whosoever hath this world’s good and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?” (I John 3:17)
So Joy do you hold true in that, I do not think you do.
To John: You are an ididot. Here are a list of my rights I am denied:
First of all, gays and lesbians have few even basic legal protections: According to the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) which advocates for equal rights for gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender people, in 34 states, it is completely legal to fire someone from their job based on sexual orientation; in 44 states, it is legal to fire a transgender person. And with regard to marriage, only one state, Massachusetts, has granted marriage licenses to same-sex couples. 45 of the 50 states have laws either explicitly defining marriage as between a man and a woman or refuse to recognize same-sex marriages granted in other states. And, as many gay rights advocates have argued, civil unions are no substitute for the protections that straight couples get when they marry. A report from the federal government’s General Accounting Office lists more than 1,138 legal and financial protections granted to opposite-sex couples but denied to same-sex couples.
If you are a same-sex couple in the U.S., you face, at best, an endlessly confusing patchwork of different laws, rights, and protections, which you constantly have to navigate and which are vulnerable to attack, depending on where you live and where you work. At worst, your relationship is explicitly forbidden basic rights regarding the ability to raise children with your partner or make medical decisions for them.
When it comes to the right to have and raise children, same-sex couples have few, if any guarantees. Four states explicitly forbid lesbians and gay people from adopting children. If you are in a same-sex relationship and you and/or your partner have children from a previous relationship, or if you decide to become parents together, you enter another frightening patchwork of laws and regulations. Four states explicitly forbid the other half of a same-sex couple from adopting the child their partner has fathered or given birth to. And according to the HRC, in 27 states the right to do this is either “depending on the jurisdiction” or there is no clear precedent, which leaves couples in a frightening legal limbo. Even states that allow for gay or lesbian people to adopt their partner’s child have a myriad set of rules and prohibitions that make this very hard. Where these adoptions are not allowed, and one partner dies, children have been removed from what may be the only remaining parent they have ever known, and placed with their closest biological relatives, even if the child has never met these relatives before
So John do you want another list, because I can fork over an entire book to you, think before you type dud because I will stop at NOTHING to prove you WRONG!
John Says: January 28th, 2007 at 2:49 am
“Hopefully the suicide rate will be the 49.8 % will be the Republicans of this country!”
I rest my case.
And to add to this whole thing, why have gays decided now to fight for there rights, why not 1000 years ago lol
shannon Says: January 28th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Well John, let me explain a few things to you. The acceptance of homosexuals in society has waxed and waned. Just as the morality of society has waxed and waned. I know all of you Republicans need things spelled out for you so let me start spelling. 1000 years ago people were hanged for being gay. So, how were you supposed to fight for your rights if you were immediately hanged? I am sure it is hard to fight for ANYTHING swinging from the gallows. Maybe you need to do your research before making comments. It is people like you that make history repeat itself in terrible ways, you never learn from history because you do not KNOW history. Gays have fought for rights for as long as there have been gays on this earth you idiot. Maybe if you read something or had an original thought besides the one your party spells out for you, you would know these things. But, once again what, exactly, should anyone expect from someone like you?
It is okay for someone on your side of the party to make the comment of the suicide rate increasing if Hillary is elected but heaven f’ing forbid someone should object to that. That is what I am talking about! You do not get it do you John? I am sure your dad filled your head, politicians filled your head, media filled your head, but you have always failed to find the truth on your own because it is easier to let someone else do it for you. Now if you want to debate about how hard gays have fought for rights you need to do YOUR own research and not rely on someone to do it for you. I am sure that will be hard because it requires a thinking process but you can at least try. Then we will debate this subject. Also, do not call me out because you perceive me as being liberal when what you commrad said was worse than what I responded with. You have no idea at all how I vote, you do not know my political views because you did not ask so do not group me when you know NOTHING of me. Once again I will give you this verse for you to think about.
And whosoever hath this world’s good and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?” (I John 3:17)
shannon Says: January 28th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
And John why did you not respond to the list of rights I am denied? Because I proved you wrong, is that why?
Kolran Fett Says: January 28th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Because 1000 years ago the main liberal base hadn’t taking to convincing them that their mental disorder had rights. And Shannon, I wish you would shut up about typing errors because you called john an “ididot”. I didn’t know that was English. And once again, your not breaking the law by reacting on selfish impulse, but it doesn’t benefit society. It’s hard to explain… doing things to better everyone, not just yourself. I am sorry Shannon, I know this is way beyond you, this is an adult thing that I hope some day you will understand.
Btw, I find it highly ironic that you only post on this subject. It truly shows your narrow mindedness.
-Kolran Fett
The Other Side Says: January 29th, 2007 at 12:27 am
1000 years ago there were no laws against same-sex marriage. also, homosexuals finally feel comfortable voicing thier opinions without fear of violence.
they only want the same treatment as heterosexuals. they still don’t have that until they can get married, just like heterosexual couples.
however, name-calling ruins this debate because people won’t listen to hostility. this debate, like abortion, draws in too many emotions that cloud the topic at hand.
shannon Says: January 29th, 2007 at 4:02 am
Well Kolran you give me a subject that is relevant to the the world today and maybe I will post on that. You know I am not up for this crap anymore, I know a twelve year old boy that committed suicide the other day and I have things WAY more important than this now to worry about. Perhaps it will be more proactive than arguing with a numb nut like you.
shannon Says: January 29th, 2007 at 4:50 am
and the difference in my typos and yours is that mine are not repetitive, I cannot help that I am a poor typist. and Kolran I did post a comment about conservatives voting. You responded. So, how is that? I can talk to you all day about any subject that you would like, maybe you did not read my stint about abortion. So give me a subject and we shall have a show down.
Kolran-Fett Says: January 30th, 2007 at 3:09 am
See, the problem with liberals is they think they reserve the sole right to be better than everyone else. Shannon says the the different between her typos and mine are that she can’t help that she’s a poor typist. When did NBC report that I was a good typist? I guess I missed that. Even funnier, she forgets to capitalize and in her sentence. Guess gay liberals have special rights the rest of us don’t have. Shannon, its terrible that a twelve year old boy you know commited suicide. But you know what? If he would have been raised in a good fashion and had his head in the right place it wouldn’t have happened. Back when the catholic church was still strict and Suicide was sacreligious nobody commited suicide. I mean, how often do you flip through the history books and find that someone jumps to suicide off of a castle tower? Its this darned liberal thinking nowdays. They make kids think they have rights. Gimme a break. At least wait’ till they develope their entire brain (no joke, psychology) and can think ahead. Shannon, what was your view on abortion, I think I missed it. You can, if you want, join the Laughatliberals group and post your own topic too. Ever since Jack left we have been lacking charisma…
Kolran-Fett Says: January 30th, 2007 at 3:13 am
Shannon, The Otherside, Nutslikebush. I am getting really tired of your guys quoting the bible because you argue first that it is not a valid source. You also cannot call yourself christian if your are also liberal. Liberal christian maybe, but that is something totally different. There was something that Muslimview posted in Same-sex marrige ban initiates that you should all read.
Kolran-Fett Says: January 30th, 2007 at 3:28 am
That government is best that governs least.
–Thomas Jefferson
Kolran-Fett Says: January 30th, 2007 at 3:29 am
Oh, sorry that quote should have gone in the quotes blog.
-Kolran Fett
Jonathan Says: January 31st, 2007 at 10:32 pm
“You also cannot call yourself christian if your are also liberal.”
Kolran Fett,
That may be one of the dumbest statements I have ever read. What is your definition of a Christian? Is it defined by a particular denomination - whether it be Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or Protestant? Is it defined by the literal words of the Bible, a book penned by men, and written and rewritten by fallible Church leaders from various denominations of the Church throughout history? Is it defined by the words of Jesus? If so, I would be hard pressed to find more of a “Socialist” than Mr. JC.
The fundamental flaw in your argument is the belief (notice I did not say “fact”) that there is one “right” way to be a Christian and further, the utter hubris to believe that your way is the right way.
Finally, I find your quote from Jefferson apropo. I assume that you believe the general Republican principle of small government. How is a government small when it seeks to enforce its own morality on its constituents by unilaterally depriving people of a simple civil right (the marriage amendment)?
nutslikebush Says: February 1st, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Kolran,
Thomas Jefferson did not say “the government that governs best governs least.” That quote is actually from Thomas Paine. You might like some other ideas found Thomas Paine’s writing. He is my favorite political philosopher among the founding fathers (but I love Jefferson, Madison, and Adams too). His pamphlet, “Common Sense,” inspired the American Revolution. Powerful words from an uncommonly wise man.
“He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” Thomas Paine
Kolran Fett Says: February 2nd, 2007 at 12:32 am
You miss the entire point Jonathan. 1, jesus was not a socialist. In fact, he was probably as far from it as you could get. He lived by no laws, support no government, and was, in fact, executed by one. 2, the fundamental beliefs of Christianity contradict the fundamental beliefs of liberalism. Yes there are Liberal Christians, but they should just spare us all and call themselves atheists. After all, they don’t actually believe any of that stuff happened, they think the whole bible is figurative language. 3, That’s nice that you come in here and start bashing the bible. Go Away. 4, You are wondering about what type of Christian I am talking about? Try any Christian who believes in the bible. 5, NO ONE IS DEPRIVING HOMOSEXUALS OF RIGHTS, SO GET OVER IT.
One of the ten commandments as written by the Liberal Bible of America- Thou Shall Not Kill, but if you do it’s perfectly fine, you shan’t go to jail, you shall have rehabilitation. (and abortion doesn’t count either).
Have fun in hell,
Kolran Fett
nutslikebush Says: February 2nd, 2007 at 3:45 am
Got time to open your eyes? Check out the excellent documentary, “Why We Fight”
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4924034461280278026
nutslikebush Says: February 2nd, 2007 at 4:07 am
But, Kolran, if you like Thomas Jefferson quotes, here is one to ponder.
The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter … But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
* Letter to John Adams (April 11, 1823
The Other Side Says: February 2nd, 2007 at 5:36 am
People need to be more open-minded about this debate and not include petty political differences and cheap shots. For instance, Kolran, you felt sorry for me because you “…wish(ed) (I) had a more open view to the world.” (1/23/2007, 1:20 am, Same-sex marriage bans) But you are totally close-minded.
If the conservative side could imagine that homosexuality isn’t a choice and is being restricted rights (marriage and its benefits) and if the liberal side could imagine the importance of religion and morality in America and how people have strayed, we wouldn’t lose the point of this debate. There is a clash of beliefs, but low blows and dwindling on grammar doesn’t help anything.
In my case, there is no hidden agenda for why I believe what I believe. But as long as people don’t acknowledge the opposition’s beliefs, the debate will continue to be at a stalemate.
shannon Says: February 2nd, 2007 at 5:50 am
Kolran Fett, I am denied over 1,000 rights by not being able to legally marry my wife. Where do you come up with your numbers. As I have said before the bible says to “Turn the other cheek”
nutslikebush Says: February 2nd, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Kolran,
It seems that you have misunderstood both Christianity and liberalism. The problem is all in your head. There isn’t much that the outside world can do to help you until that problem is resolved.
nutslikebush Says: February 2nd, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Everyone should keep in mind the fact that the constitutional amendment that is being debated here is one proposed by conservatives forbiding individuals of the same sex to enter into a legal relationship with one another (i.e, to be married in the eyes of the law). If such an ammendment to the Constitution passed, this would be the first use of our Constitution to block the rights of individuals. Thus, the conservative proposal is in fact radical and strongly conflicts with the purpose of the Constitution as our founding fathers conceived it.
It seems to me that the conservatives involved in this discussion on this site do not even know what the basic issue is - your personal values are irrelevant to the debate, it is about a law. In our country, all laws must be based on secular reasons. Period! That is beyond debate.
Kolran Fett Says: February 2nd, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Okay, you guys are living in denial. I already explained why gay marriage is wrong. I made my points, and you came back with finger pointing. So I have had enough of this topic (as I have said before). And I really wish Shannon would quit quoting the bible. What a hypocrite! Nutslikebush, I watched the video and I am fairly sure it is a far stretch from reality. You were also probably right about the quote being Thomas pain, where I got it it said Thomas Jefferson, but I guess it was wrong.
Kolran Fett
Kolran Fett Says: February 3rd, 2007 at 12:03 am
Actually, nutslikebush, it wasn’t that the video was far from the truth, but it was strong together with assumptions. For example, they assumed that Saddam Hussein would’ve never been a danger, and we don’t know that. Other than that the movie was alright.
nutslikebush Says: February 3rd, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Kolran,
Saddam should not have been seen as being very high on America’s “most threatening” list. In fact, he was perfectly boxed in, hand cuffed, if you will. But the real dangerous groups were strengthened by our attack on Iraq. Therefore, in order to dispose of one weak middle eastern leader that we (justifiably) did not like, we destroyed a country, damaged our own military, destroyed our relationships with most of the countries that we need in order to successfully solve the terrorism problem (it ain’t a war, by the way. War is clearly the wrong metaphor for the terrorism problem. A metaphor that is causing us to approach the problem ineffectively.), cost 10s or 100s of thousands of lives. Iraq was a very bad target and this mistake has cost us dearly. Our press let us down by not seriously challenging the war from the first time it was mentioned by our incompetent leaders. The press, and citizens, are not supposed to be cheerleaders. They (and we) need to challenge the government at every turn and force them to prove that they understand what is going on, a test that they have failed for at least the last 6 years.
nutslikebush Says: February 3rd, 2007 at 8:06 pm
I have wanted to bring this up at this site but didn’t have the energy or time to explain it to folks who would be unwilling to even think about this subject; but now someone else has written an article on the topic so I don’t have to. What most folks don’t know is that homosexual behavior is frequently observed in all mammals (that’s what we are, for folks who haven’t had biology in a while) both in the wild and in captivity (most copulations in Big Horn Sheep, for example, are male on male). But here is a nice article, written for non-scientists, explaining some information that might be of use to some LAL posters and readers.
slate.com/id/2158877
Kolran Fett Says: February 4th, 2007 at 12:19 am
I am getting sick and I don’t feel much like arguing the war in Iraq. You have your point, but I still think the war was, for the most part, justified. It would have, probably, been smarter to go in Afghanistan for 2 years first, then after the 9/11 haze cleared, look at Iraq.
nutslikebush Says: February 4th, 2007 at 2:55 am
Since 2003 I have been talking about how one unitended consequence of the invasion of Iraq would be an increase in the power of Iran (I got into an debate with Buck about that about 2 years ago and he said I was crazy). Now it has obviously come to pass. Here is a good summary of the problem published on the BBC site. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6328753.stm
nutslikebush Says: February 5th, 2007 at 1:58 am
unintended. Not unitended. I just updated Firefox and it has a spell checker and god knows I need one. A thought checker would be helpful too. Maybe in a future upgrade.
But seriously, if anyone wants to listen to a fantastic podcast on the opposition movement inside of Iran (ie., Iranian opposition to the Iranian government, which gets no press in the US), Danny Postel’s, “Reading ‘Legitimation Crisis’ in Tehran” is for you. It can be found at “The World Beyond the Headlines” site. I just finished it and found it very informative. I am on my way to Barnes and Noble to get Postel’s book.
link to podcast. just put the http in front of the :/ . no www is required. I noticed that Buck leaves out the http part. It must mess up the posting software or something.
internationalstudies.uchicago.edu/wbh.shtml
Misty Says: February 6th, 2007 at 1:54 am
It’s about a lack of respect for your fellow human beings and an utterly exclusionary attitude that divides people and keeps us from living in a more peaceful manner. When we begin to think in terms of onenss that celebrates diversity, we will move toward a more harmonious existence.
Don’t fret, someday you’ll get it.
Kolran Fett Says: February 6th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Misty, who was that directed at?
Joy Says: February 15th, 2007 at 10:35 am
So many seem to be missing the point.
Homosexuality is not the way humans were made to live.
I find it sad that such a low view of humanity is taken that, rather than go for the whole truth regarding this issue, we address feelings on one hand and animal behavior as an example for us on the other.
NLB, you brought up homosexual behavior in animals…and how long would they last if that were their constant form of sexual activity? Wouldn’t they be the ones that would die out due to lack of reproduction? Is that what happened to the dodo?
And, if “many” mammals commit random homosexual acts, is that, in itself, a reason to accept it as a healthy lifestyle for humans?
I’m coming back with some serious factual data regarding the homosexual lifestyle in humans.
Joy Says: February 15th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Shannon,
I’m able now to take the time to give you a response. It sounds like you’re assuming that I look down on homosexuals. I don’t. My blunt and straightforward statements in the original post are just that, blunt and straightforward. Looks like you can relate to that style.
I’m not sure where the Bible thumping comment came in. It reads very much like a stereotype of ‘Christian’…Closed-minded, holier-than-thou, cold-hearted people who love nothing better than kicking people when they’re down and pointing long bony fingers at them to tell them what awful sinners they are. Does that about cover it?
In real life, I actually do hurt when I hear of children near and far who are living a hell on earth. Personally, I’ve been violently raped, worked on a crisis hotline for abused women, brought our children to personally buy toys and clothes for and give them to children in shelters, walked through the healing process of my son coming back from a coma and relearning to walk, talk and toilet train at age 8, did day shift with a 9 year old girl fighting leukemia…including giving her meds and flushes through her IV, keeping her company, getting her to eat…so that her single parent could work until she went into remission 9 months later THANK GOD! Yes, I have a clue what life’s like sometimes. I’ve never seen anyone gunned down, but it doesn’t stop me from praying for the family when I hear about it. I think I care a little.
So, please don’t misread my stand for lack of compassion. I respect anyone who acts respectfully, whatever their worldview.
In real life their are people who disgust me because of their disregard for their marriage vows who happen to be heterosexual. There are those whom I enjoy being with because of their keen wit who happen to be homosexual. People are people.
I hope that clarifies things for you.
shannon Says: February 16th, 2007 at 3:32 am
Joy, you fail to see MY point. My point is this, I am in a monogamous relationship and have been for the last two years. I have slept withe two people, I have been molested by the wonderful heterosexual world you speak of. I have been in the face of God and asked him why me, I have prayed to end my homosexuality, I went to a reprogrammer, I have been on me knees in front of an alter in church begging for God to let me die because I could not stand the person I was and in the light of all of that the most wonderful person I ever met walked into my life. Now, review what I just typed and tell me that I acted on animal urges. Review that and tell me God did not send my wife to me. Review that and tell me I am a horrible person. I love my wife, I would walk through fire for that woman, I pray to God everyday for our safety, well-being, and health. Do you know what the funny thing is? I cannot help to think that God has a hand in that. Like the Dixie Chicks say: I’m through with doubt there’s nothing left for me to figure out, I’ve paid a price and I’ll keep paying.
shannon Says: February 16th, 2007 at 3:43 am
What is a greater sin: Lying to yourself, or being the person you are and embracing that person? Not Ready to Make Nice is such a wonderful song for this situation. why is the world so cold and ignorant? why do the Ten Commandments say nothing about homosexuality but says a slew of things against the things heterosexuals do on the daily? Funny how you so called Christians take what you want to out of The Bible and run with it. The Bible says that if my father dies his brother is entitled to EVERYTHING that is my fathers, do you guys follow that? The Bible says Thou shalt not kill, PERIOD no thou shalt not kill but in war it is okay, if you commit a crime well you can kill then, there are no exceptions to that.
shannon Says: February 16th, 2007 at 4:24 am
And also…. for the last f’ing time homosexuality is not a LIFESTYLE, just like Heterosexuality is not a lifestyle. How hard is that to grasp? Why in the hell would a CHOOSE the hardest thing on earth to be? Do people CHOOSE to be black? Is that also a lifestyle? Don’t you people get it? Why would I CHOOSE to live life as difficult as I possibly can? Why would I CHOOSE to go to hell if that is the case?
The Other Side Says: February 16th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
Shannon, no matter how many times people tell opponents of homosexuality, their religion trumps that. If not religion, ignorance or any number of reasons prevent them from accepting the homosexual lifestyle. It is hard to change those attitudes, especially those rooted in religion.
The thing that many liberals/homosexuals want is not to necessarily change their beliefs, rather help them become more accepting of a community. With the current laws banning same-sex marriage and defining marriage as a between a man and a women, homosexuals are still not being accepted. Thats the reason why I hold my position, to further tolerance.
People don’t have to like homosexuality, but that doesn’t mean that they can prevent equality. However, until homosexuality is proven to not be a choice, this debate will continue and progress will not be made.
nutslikebush Says: February 17th, 2007 at 2:55 am
Joy,
With respect to the non-human animal, no they wouldn’t be the ones that fail to reproduce. There are really interesting explanations for this behavior and why it persists in all mammalian species. It isn’t abnormal at all, it is a natural and adaptive response to certain stimulus/environmental circumstances. Homosexual behavior in other species promotes group cohesion and reduces the probability of aggression between members of the same sex, especially when there also is intense competition for other-sex mates. Most other mammals appear to have a strategy that goes something like this: make love, not war - thus bisexuality. Come to think of it, do you think that overall gays may be less likely to kill other members of their species? I’d bet on it.
nutslikebush Says: February 17th, 2007 at 3:00 am
Joy,
Come to think of it, your dodo example may be apropos; human hunters drove them to extinction.
John Says: February 18th, 2007 at 3:56 am
shannon, your so misguided, you have chosen to be homosexual, there is no gene in our DNA that tells us we are gay. So there for it is a choice. No if you are black, tall, small, brown hair, ect…those are determined by genes.
If it were determined by genes, gays and lesbians would be wiped out since they can not reproduce which means genes cannot be passed on.
“Joy, you fail to see MY point. My point is this, I am in a monogamous relationship and have been for the last two years. I have slept withe two people, I have been molested by the wonderful heterosexual world you speak of. I have been in the face of God and asked him why me, I have prayed to end my homosexuality, I went to a reprogrammer, I have been on me knees in front of an alter in church begging for God to let me die because I could not stand the person I was and in the light of all of that the most wonderful person I ever met walked into my life.”
-You bask in your self pity and try making it look horrible, like your suffering. the kids dying in africa of aids or starvation are suffering.
and to add to the comment you made about the ten commandments.
It says murder is a sin
but let me give you the correct definition of murder: unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being.
Unlawful- meaning that it isnt legal.
When war is declared the killing of the enemy is legal. so, it isnt murder.
You really can’t argue with that unless you refuse to accept how it is.
John Says: February 18th, 2007 at 4:07 am
I think jyos comment on 2/15 makes plenty of sense. just because an animal does it…does that make it okay for humans to do so.
Animals do many things that we wouldn’t. one example is licking there butts, we as humans do not lick are butts,but many animals do. We also don’t decide on who gets a female by who beats the crap out of the other male (though some guys do engage in this, it doesnt decide who the girl wants to be with)
I think descrimination against gays is wrong.
discrimination in the form of making fun of and other forms of behavior that could hurt someone who is gay.
But i truly beleive gay felings are a defect experienced in many people who are gay.
and its something that should be corrected.
Like ignorance, hate, discrimination, racism ect…those are just a few things that make us imperfect.
If we all went on our “insticts” without filtering them with what is right and wrong, this world would be a mess.
Sticking man parts into foreign holes is not something youre born with and its NOT love.
John Says: February 18th, 2007 at 5:12 am
and…
check it out lol
it has nothing to do with the topic but i had fun agreeing with this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9DBdokG2D0&mode=related&search=
Kolran Fett Says: February 18th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
“And also…. for the last f’ing time homosexuality is not a LIFESTYLE, just like Heterosexuality is not a lifestyle. How hard is that to grasp? Why in the hell would a CHOOSE the hardest thing on earth to be? Do people CHOOSE to be black? Is that also a lifestyle? Don’t you people get it? Why would I CHOOSE to live life as difficult as I possibly can? Why would I CHOOSE to go to hell if that is the case?”
Being black is not a lifestyle, no, but being black, being in a gang, listening to rap, ect. is a lifestyle. And yes, ‘us people’ do get it, better than you apparently. You sound like a little kid who just learned how to swear. Yes, you would choose to go to hell, I don’t know why, but you would and are. Because prophanity is frowned upon in most religions.
Have fun in he double hockeysticks.
-Kolran Fet
Kolran Fett Says: February 18th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
BTW, how dare you compare yourself to a black american. They have seen more racial discrimination in any given day then you and your crew of liberal gay rights whiners have in a lifetime.
shannon Says: February 18th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
and your definition of murder is not stated ANYWHERE in the Bible. Yes I was suffering because of people like you! I no longer suffer because I no longer give an F what people like YOU think. As for DNA that is STILL undetermined, funny thing about your DNA analysis is that I am not the only homo in my family, there are tons! Funny you do not believe in discrimination because MOST, no wait ALL, of your statements discriminate by trying to prove that heteros are the superior race in society. I bet you have some urges yourself or else you would not make such blanketed statements. By the way this comment is brought to you by the letters F and U
shannon Says: February 19th, 2007 at 12:02 am
The funny thing about all of you conservatives is this: There are so many things that are going on in the world today and you guys want to focus on gay marriage. Give me an f’ing break! Do you think that will make the Sunni’s and Shiite’s side with us? Do you think they will throw their guns down and say “Thank Allah they hate gays too!” Do you think it will end world hunger? Keep the governments hands out of our lives? Provide world health care? Cure the energy crisis? This is so typical. You all try MICROMANAGEMENT and fail. My quote of the day reads a little something like this:
After playing a clip of Congressman Phil Gingrey, in which the lawmaker said, “In my opinion, marriage isn’t just any kind of love. It’s a love that can bear children,” Black quipped, “Hey Congressman, take my word for it. A one-night stand with no love, a Quaalude and three beers can also bear children.”
Yes folks that is Lewis Black, call him a jew, a liberal, whatever you want to toss in here but, at least he tells it like it is.
shannon Says: February 19th, 2007 at 12:25 am
And I could be terribly wrong but your comment about me being defected falls under you category of HATE, DISCRIMINATION and last but definitely not least IGNORANCE
shannon Says: February 19th, 2007 at 12:29 am
The ten commandments do not say thou shalt not commit murder….. I could be terribly wrong but I thought they said Thou shalt not KILL!!!! The Bible also says it is immoral for you to sleep with a woman while she is on her cycle. Do you follow that one too?
Rob Says: February 19th, 2007 at 1:37 am
Question-
“I have prayed to end my homosexuality, I went to a reprogrammer, I have been on me knees in front of an alter in church begging for God to let me die because I could not stand the person I was and in the light of all of that the most wonderful person I ever met walked into my life.”
Shannon, If you really believe there is nothing disgusting about homosexuality, why pray for God to “end it”?
I will tell you why. Because you may have read this verse too:
“And if a man has sex relations with a man, the two of them have done a disgusting thing: let them be put to death; their blood will be on them.” -leviticus 20:13
God despises homosexuality. look what he did to Sodom.
Acceptance of Homosexuality is the sign of a decadent society.
The Other Side Says: February 19th, 2007 at 1:46 am
John, how do you know that being homosexual is a choice? You seem very sure of your point of view yet do not cite any studies or proof. How does one learn to be homosexual? The media? Those darn liberals? What? I never learned to be heterosexual, I’ve just always liked women. How is being homosexual any different than being heterosexual?
There is no proof for the basis of homosexuality. Only propoganda that demonizes it. So homosexuals cannot reproduce. Is that all there is to relationships? How about love, trust, etc. Too many heterosexuals are getting married for the wrong reasons. Yet loving homosexuals are denyed the benefits of marriage.
If people want to save traditional marriage, how about decreasing the 50% divorce rate and permiscuous sex. If you rely on homosexuality being a choice, than you will believe the people can spread it. But if its not, then what?
Homosexualiy is harmless and allowing them to marry won’t ruin the world. But continuing to discriminate them will have negative affects on equality.
nutslikebush Says: February 19th, 2007 at 3:20 am
John,
If you think that my point is that if animals do it it is fine for humans to do, then you totally miss my point. Biology is value-free. Values are human inventions. If your values dictate to you that you should behave in a certain way, by all means do so. I personally am interested in understanding how things work. I don’t accept the primitive attempts to explain the world that were handed down from goat herders and the like. So I prefer to think and examine evidence. I think that the evidence strongly suggests that homosexuality is part of an ordinary pattern of sexual behavior among mammals. There is nothing that anyone is going to do to stop it, nor should they. Why waste your time trying? Hell, probably the vast majority of preachers and priests have engaged in it on the same day that they condemned it to their congregations. Why? Because they have a primitive understanding of the world and don’t understand their own behavior. They believe in devils and gods etc, instead of getting to know the actual world. I tired long ago of the shallowness of the religious/traditionalist superficial value system. I demand more of myself.
Joy Says: February 19th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Shannon,
If you would just take several deep cleansing breaths and read what I’ve written without reading INTO what I’ve written, you might realize that I do not look down on practicing homosexuals as people. In other words, I do NOT look down on you. For all you know, I could be that heterosexual that you enjoy being around and don’t feel threatened by.
You seem much more judgemental of yourself and others than I.
Please don’t assume that your harsh view of me is correct; it is very far from it. Please don’t assume that your narrow stereotype misunderstanding of me is correct either - it isn’t even close.
If you know me and still say I’m a hypocrite and judgemental and don’t have a clue and am heartless blah blah blah, you may have a point…except that the only other person who said that about me was so wrapped up in himself and his hurt and a victim mentality that he was sure anyone who didn’t agree with him 100% was all those things that you accuse me of. He was heterosexual…as if that matters.
You seem totally obsessed with what someone’s sexual lifestyle is and then you attribute that obsession to me.
Your writing so far has shown a very narrow, judgemental, accusatory attitude. Interesting how you point your finger at ‘conservatives’ for being what your writing actually is portraying you as.
I would be very interested to read a rational comment written by you regarding this issue…it may prove enlightening - to both of us.
Joy Says: February 19th, 2007 at 10:07 am
nlb,
You demand more of yourself than realizing the scientific truth that values are not human inventions, but are woven into the fabric of our being?
Also, I’m not following your logic in that preachers and priests may have condemned homosexuality while practicing it themselves…soooooo, should we follow that bad example? You keep giving bad examples that are actually beneath behavior we should exhibit as if those are the examples to follow. SOME animals do this…SOME preachers/priests do this. Don’t you demand more of yourself than that?
Also, I can’t believe that you actually know any religious people that you respect - or you wouldn’t be calling their value system shallow. People who live their beliefs are anything but shallow.
A value system that holds the same standard for everyone, without discrimination, is hardly shallow. A shallow value system is one that changes on the whim of any and everyone who wishes to have their say in it…or the loudest voices, be they whining or yelling. A changeable value system that is different for everyone is no value system at all, but chaos. It has no depth whatsoever and is useless and worthless. Surely you demand more of yourself than that. Then again, how can you demand anything of yourself and why should you? That would show a value system, which is just your own invention…which you despise. Hmmmm…is there an off switch for that merry-go-round?
Kolran Fett Says: February 19th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
I really we could get off the gay topic…
shannon Says: February 19th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Rob,
WTF Yes I did have a problem with it in the beginning because people told me I would burn in hell. So, yes, someone at the ripe old age of 16 will have a problem with a so called sin. Your scripture means nothing to me because, I have pointed out previously, the bible says lots of things about lots of situations and those are never followed through with. I am tired of everyone picking that one piece of scripture out of the Bible. IT also has a line about love thy neighbor, six generations of a bastard child will be doomed to hell, and so on and so forth.
Joy,
As I do not know you, you do not know me. As you do not want judgment passed on you, neither do I. Your comments in you intial post were very harsh. You pointed out how we are not denied simple freedoms but fail to see that I AM denied very simple rights. You still fail to see that the government should not tell me who I can marry. The church should make that decision all I ask for from the government is a civil union. If the church wants to grant me marital rights that is their call, not the governments. Yes you are judgmental when you liken my sexuality to a choice. Still you have failed to answer my question of why would anyone choose to be persecuted on a daily basis. I have plenty of straight friends, most of them are straight come to think of it, and the funny thing is this: They ALL think I should be able to have a marriage with my wife. Who cares if you have gay friends, do you want a cookie? I have black friends and still cannot comprehend what they go through everyday. But, I also do not deny them anything, if they want to marry a white girl, fine by me. No I am not judgmental of me I have been there and done that, the only reason I wrote about how I hated to be gay once upon a time was so people could understand where I came from. Do not throw that one back in my face. You opened the door for judgment with this:No one is putting them in jail or prison for blatant disregard for the law.
Now call me a fool, but if you have to point out that we are breaking some sort of law then there is something askew here. If you want to start a big debate over this yet again I am cocked and loaded. I can pull things out of your form of the Bible that I am sure you have done in your lifetime that goes against your skewed form of morality. Funny how you Christians want to refer back to the old testament for your information but yet you call yourself CHRISTIAN! Well I could be wrong but I thought that you were to follow the teachings of CHRIST hence the word CHRISTIAN, Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality. Why fail to see that one? You Christians think Jews are going to hell because they do not believe that Christ was the son of God but yet you guys keep raping their Bible. Come on now stop being hypocrits, you all take your little pieces from the old testaments when it benefits you.
As for your “value system” the value system that is not changeable, well that system said we should hate black people because they were beneath us. Some still believe that, does that mean it is right? People in those days had scripture to back that up also. Was MArtin Luther King Jr. a conservative because he did not sway on his argument for integration? So, you still want to say I am conservative? I want the same rights, so I am conservative. That is the best thing I have EVER heard. How in the f am I obsessed with others sexuality? You guys are obsessed with mine, you are so afraid that it is going to ruin the sanctity of marriage. Like I am going to go to someones house and have sex with my wife in front of their families and then landscape their yard. You are the one obsessed, why does this issue threaten so many people? Shouldn’t straight people worry about their divorce rate? Brittany Spears being an idol to little girls everywhere? Size 0 models? Sleeper cells in our country? Education being a joke? North Korea? I mean I can do this all day. When you can give me a viable reason then I will understand.
shannon Says: February 19th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Kolran Fett after searching the internet about you, your opinion means nothing to me. Have fun with you Star Wars obsession
shannon Says: February 19th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
And another thing Joy, you were the one who threw the wrench in saying homosexuals were demons because we supported abortion. Now lets not be a hypocrit here.
The Other Side Says: February 19th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
John, that link you put in your response was interesting. It did show Democratic mis-steps, but why do all of the good Republican points refer to the economy? It seems to show how Republicans either use character attacks or money to make them seem the better choice. Bush will go down as one of the worst presidents ever because of Iraq, among other things. Don’t deny it.
hollinndagain Says: February 19th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
This entire cascade of comments is merely a showcase for the debilitating dominance of religion over logic in the field of politics. Joy, I wish you could see the world through unbiased eyes, so you could truly know how ridiculous this argument is, and how depressing it is to watch it repeat endlessly on different days and in different theaters. To see homosexuals cast out, birth control denied, stem cell research halted, rape victims turned down for abortions, and people killed on a daily basis for reasons that amount to well cherished fairy tales is enough to drive my peers and I to utter nausea.
Keep religion out of politics. It is impeding the progress of our species. Give your argument another shot without using the bible as a crutch and see how well you fare then.
shannon Says: February 20th, 2007 at 12:59 am
Joy you contradict yourself by saying that you could be the heterosexual I do not feel threatened by, that sounds like a line of bs upon reviewing all that you have said. You want to say you have a wonderful value system but yet you demonize an entire community for the beliefs of some. Did you forget your comment about the homosexual community believing in abortion? I am sorry but if one does not uphold my beliefs I do not associate with those people. If I knew my best friend were a murderer I would no longer like that person because I would view her as a monster. Just because others beliefs are different than your own does not mean that their beliefs are wrong. Another thing is this as a Christian you are not supposed to judge, judgment is for God not you. When you liken homosexuals to anything other than what they are, guess what….. you are passing JUDGMENT upon them.
Rob Says: February 20th, 2007 at 1:30 am
values are “human inventions”, but homosexuality is not???
It seems to me, that if we only did what came natural, males would only have sex with females…… i mean after all, if we are just animals whose sole purpose is to reproduce, why would people have homosexual relationships? Because they want to. It feels good to them. they like it. I have heard of pedifiles saying the same thing. But I digress. Homosexuality is the “human invention”. Values and free will are what separate us from animals. If you want to follow every primal feeling you have, go live in a zoo.
Most animals are not self-aware. in fact the only animal other than humans which has sex for pleasure’s sake is the dolphin.
I’ve heard a lot of people comparing homosexuality to cheating on spouses and promiscuity. But i don’t think there’s any difference at all. A man cheating on his wife could claim that it was just the way he was born and he had an urge to. And would we forgive him? No. homosexuality is the same as any other “sexual misbehavior”. Just because you feel like it doesn’t make it right.
And if it is indeed “genetic”, then why aren’t we looking for a cure? sounds to me like sicle cell anemia or cystic fibrosis. It’s just a genetic disorder that needs therapy and medication.
or a little freaking self control.
John Says: February 20th, 2007 at 4:43 am
To “the other side”,
Bush will go down in history as a bad presindent because the ignorance and stupidity/bias of the media, not because he was a bad president.
John Says: February 20th, 2007 at 4:45 am
hollinndagain-
Keep politics out of religion…
FYI, many of our laws are based from religion. Thank you
John Says: February 20th, 2007 at 4:52 am
Yes Rob i agree self control would be an end to may issues.
Abortion, gays, war (if there terrorist could control thereselves)
ignorant people.
and by the way, homosexuality is a sin just like murder, its stated in the bible, thank you rob –> “And if a man has sex relations with a man, the two of them have done a disgusting thing: let them be put to death; their blood will be on them.” -leviticus 20:13.
so there for condemning gays for doing what they do isn’t discrimination.
Making fun of them is but telling them that there homosexuality is wrong is justified.
Yes i know it sucks to be tempted to do something, to do it, and find out what your doing is wrong. but thats life.
improve yourself.
The Other Side Says: February 20th, 2007 at 4:57 am
Rob, at least you don’t hide behind religion, you merely show your ignorance. Did you chose to be heterosexual? Because that is the only comparable sexual tendancy to homosexuality.
Also, there is nothing wrong with being promiscuous, if you’re safe about it. Pedophilia is illegal, so that moot. Did that cheating man ask for forgiveness, or was he just making excuses? If he asked for forgiveness, than he can be forgiven.
You are just throwing out uncomparable sexual misbehaviors and linking them to homosexuality to trivialize it. Homosexuality is larger than you make it out to be and more complex than your brain can handle. There doesn’t need to be a cure for it, just a cure for homophobia that persists.
Rob Says: February 21st, 2007 at 12:56 am
hahahaha
I am heterosexual because that is the way we ought to be.
And I don’t cheat on my wife because we shouldn’t.
And I don’t sleep around because I respect myself and my body too much to do that.
And if you can’t decide if something is right and wrong because of the law (because the law is made by man and therefore imperfect), and since not everybody has the same religion, how do you decide right and wrong? Well, since apparently it’s all relative, i’ll just go start killing people i don’t like and raping virgins. And then i’ll claim that i was just following my beliefs. And if you accuse me for doing whatever the hell i want, you should also accuse all the gays who do whatever the hell they want.
We aren’t animals. We have a sense of right and wrong (nomatter how dulled or ignored). How would that have “evolved” if there was no such thing as right and wrong?
You can’t make a something right just by saying it is over and over.
Kolran Fett Says: February 21st, 2007 at 1:12 am
What I hate about this hole thing is The Other Side BROUGHT RELIGION INTO THIS ARGUMENT. He and I were having a halfway decent conversation and then Shannon busts in with he preaching about god and using profanity all the way along. I make a nice big convincing argument if you would like to read it up above, and sense then everyone besides john has been spitting out bull. By the way John, about that video, I posted that link on another section of the site almost a year ago :-D. Oh, and if anyone needs a convincing argument that the liberals can deny and back with nothing except ‘equal rights for all’ go to wikipedia and type in homosexual, great artical. We don’t need homosexuality, that’s the bottom line. GO TO FRANCE.
-Kolran Fett
Kolran Fett Says: February 21st, 2007 at 1:24 am
Here, I’ll copy and paste this from Same-Sex Marrage Ban Initiates.
kay, the otherside, your only valid argument is that it doesn’t hurt anyone, correct? You just try to make other arguements out of bullcrap like ‘it’s based on religion, it can’t be valid!’ This country was based on religion, almost all of the founding fathers were devoted christians. Does that mean this country isn’t valid? Without religion we would be nothing, have no reason to live, and there would be no reason to treat others with respect. If you have nothing assosiating with religion in your life you would be like an animal with no higher goal. Maybe I did generalize a bit on some of the other issues, but the basic concept is still there. You give me ONE scenario where homosexuality benifits society and I will give you four scenarios where it does not.
I will go through your points again if you need.
1. Yes, it is a choice. Just like the choice to kill someone or not, just like the choice of robbing a bank. According to the liberal playbook you will now argue that those are illegal and homosexuality is not. Okay, lets take bipolar for example. Being bipolar is not illegal. This bipolar person knows if he doesn’t take his ‘medicine’ he will go out of control, probably offend many people, lose his job, and be a real pain in societies side. It isn’t illegal not to take those drugs, but not talking them has bad consequinces.
2. Homosexuality is no longer illegal thanks to the liberal agenda that legalized this disorder.
3. Homosexuality doesn’t hurt anyone? findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1976/is_200204/ai_n6988244, go to that link, read that. Two good points, Rape and Aids. Men/boys never used to get raped. So now instead of having 1/2 the population as a possible victim, we have 2/2 as possible victims.
4. Can someone who is normal choose to be mentally retarded? No
5. Scientific proof, AIDS- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS , adopted childern- Father-son Relationships and Male Sexual Development
Investigation into parent-child relations of homosexual and heterosexual men is heavily documented in research literature, and a link between the absence of sufficient bonding with same-sex parent or role models and the development of adult male homosexuality has been proposed. Numerous studies have found that adult homosexual males tend to report having had less loving and more rejecting fathers than their heterosexual peers (from wikipedia/homosexuality)
6. So, how would you like to grow up without knowing your real parents, have aids, and be rejected by your own parents. How the hell are you suppose to benifit society. On top of this you will be forced to be atheist and you probably won’t have any friends cause you talk funny.
7. If those aren’t enough facts for you… [removed by editor]
John Says: February 21st, 2007 at 1:40 am
” There doesn’t need to be a cure for it, just a cure for homophobia that persists”
the other side, thats your opinion.
not supported by a greater being.
The Other Side Says: February 21st, 2007 at 3:36 am
religion is the basis for many of the anti-homosexual rhetoric. therefore it is important to include in the debate.
the kind of cure that rob implied is related to an illness that affects the health of the person to make them healthy. homosexuality is not detrimental to the health of anyone.
people have tried to “cure” homosexuals and failed. they even make lives worse for the “patients” and their families. if homosexuality is a choice, where are the people who have been “cured”?
shannon Says: February 21st, 2007 at 7:45 am
Still have not heard why you guys do not follow all of the other teachings in the Bible….. Still have not heard why you ONLY pick that one thing out. Kolran Fett I recall you telling me to Shut The F up not too very long ago. I also saw you give justification to a 12 year olds suicide by saying his parents were bad not knowing that his parents and he were in church every time the doors are open and that his dad is the head of the State Troopers office numb nuts. So do not sit on your self righteous thrown. So anyone up for telling me why Homosexuality is the only thing pulled out of the Old Testament? I mean I have to hear this one. The Bible also says Judge not least ye be judged first….. Now call me a fool but all of you have passed SERIOUS judgment. and Kolran if you would like to refer to me has a man the context you used it in would have been him not he.
Rob Says: February 21st, 2007 at 10:34 pm
no shannon. “serious judgement” is:
you are a sinner and i find you disgusting. you’re going to hell.
Speaking the truth isn’t passing judgement. While I do believe there are consequences for sin, it isn’t for myself or anyone else to condemn you. However, those of us who know the truth won’t be bullied into keeping quiet while amoral people run amock in this country desecrating the values we were founded on.
Rob Says: February 21st, 2007 at 10:37 pm
“and Kolran if you would like to refer to me has a man the context you used it in would have been him not he.” -shannon
So with that, let’s have a grammar lesson for Shannon, since she obviously can’t help but give one to poor Kolran. You left the subject out of your first sentence, as well as your second. “Not too very long ago” is redundant, and “12 year olds” should be “12-year-old’s”. The sentence ending in “numb nuts” makes no sense. It is clearly a run-on.
The sentence beginning with “So anyone up for” has no predicate. You should insert “is” after “So”. Not too many typos though; except that you typed “has” instead of “as”. And you left a comma out just after “man”, because it is required to separate your independent and dependent clauses.
Not to seem picky.
Is anyone else tired of people picking out grammar mistakes? They’re completely irrelevant.
shannon Says: February 21st, 2007 at 10:59 pm
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” (John 3:16-19)
“Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:17-20)
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.” (Matthew 5:27-30)
“It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 5:31-32)
“As I live, says the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it.” (Ezekiel 16:48-50)
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.” (1 Corinthians 13)
“Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled; but God will judge fornicators and adulterers.” (Hebrews 13:4)
Kolran Fett Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 12:03 am
Stop bring the bible into your arguments shannon, you sit there swearing and ‘passing judgment’ then you bring religion on your side. I lost you. I never Justified a 12 year old suicide. Your real screwed up if you want to lie about that. Here I’ll put what I said in quotes for you, “Shannon, its terrible that a twelve year old boy you know commited suicide.” Walla, there you have it. And no, I have never said the F word nor ever intend to say it, you on the other hand use cuss words like a kid who just learned how to swear.
Kolran Fett Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 12:23 am
Okay, I have been needing to clarify this point for a while. Okay the purpose of gays having sex is to spread AIDS and nothing else. If you are really that stupid I will spit it out, gays can’t have kids. Wow, hope that wasn’t a newsflash. You can argue that straits have oral sex, but Oral sex doesn’t spread aids, does it? At least not in most cases, depending on how you prevent the pregnancy.
Okay, here is another point in need of clarification. Gays adopt kids, big whoop. Did you know if it wasn’t for immigrants the population in the United States would be falling? And I, personally, would much rather be raised at an orphanage or a group home then by a gay couple. You are going to go through hell in school, have low self esteem, and probably commit suicide.
To back this up;
Investigation into parent-child relations of homosexual and heterosexual men is heavily documented in research literature, and a link between the absence of sufficient bonding with same-sex parent or role models and the development of adult male homosexuality has been proposed. Numerous studies have found that adult homosexual males tend to report having had less loving and more rejecting fathers than their heterosexual peers (Bell, Weinberg, & Parks, 1981; Bieber et al., 1962; Braatan & Darling, 1965; Brown, 1963; Evans, 1969; Jonas, 1944; Millic & Crowne, 1986; Nicolosi, 1991; Phelan, 1993; Saghir & Robins, 1973; Siegelman, 1974; Snortum, 1969; Socarides, 1978; West, 1959).
Bieber (1976) stated:
Since 1962 when our volume was published, I have interviewed about 1,000 male homosexuals and 50 pairs of parents of homosexuals. The classic pattern was present in more than 90% of cases. In my entire experience, I have never interviewed a single male homosexual who had a constructive, loving father. A son who has a loving father who respects him does not become a homosexual. I have concluded that there is a causal relationship between parental influence and sexual choice
– p. 368
Bieber (1976) later expanded and clarified his earlier findings by saying:
We have repeatedly stated and written that a boy whose father is warmly related and constructive will not become homosexual; however, one must not get trapped by the fallacy of the converse, that is, a hostile, destructive father always produces a homosexual son
You can say it is a mental disorder (in which case it needs treatment), but no evidence has pointed to it being a mental problem;
It’s important to stress what I didn’t find. I did not prove that homosexuality was genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn’t show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain. INAH-3 is less likely to be the sole gay nucleus of the brain than a part of a chain of nuclei engaged in men and women’s sexual behavior…Since I looked at adult brains we don’t know if the differences I found were there at birth, or if they appeared later.[8]
– Simon LeVay, Discover, March 1994
If it does, however, turn out to be a mental disorder it still doesn’t mean that it should be aloud. Some people may expierence sudden passion to kill and eat other humans. Just because they feel this way does NOT make it right.
Homosexuality has no place in society. Most people scorn it (almost all christians and muslims, which make up far more than half the world). It was, up until recently, considered a mental disorder. Then all of the sudden homosexuals are protected? The disease didn’t change, liberals just found a group to ‘protect’. I do not need my children to grow up and see the world like this. Unless you pray for mankind’s downfall homosexuality is a BAD thing. It is all for pleasure, they should be banned from society if they can not control themselves. I do not need my son to grow up with the fear of rape.
-Kolran Fett,
I am sure this will come up, I did not say that we should lock them away, I said we should bann them from society if they cannot control themselves.
shannon Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 3:08 am
and Rob you are just as ridiculous as Kolran. Still have not heard about the rest of the Bible. Anyone going to explain that to me
shannon Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 3:09 am
Comment from Kolran-Fett
Time: 1/30/2007, 3:09 am
See, the problem with liberals is they think they reserve the sole right to be better than everyone else. Shannon says the the different between her typos and mine are that she can’t help that she’s a poor typist. When did NBC report that I was a good typist? I guess I missed that. Even funnier, she forgets to capitalize and in her sentence. Guess gay liberals have special rights the rest of us don’t have. Shannon, its terrible that a twelve year old boy you know commited suicide. But you know what? If he would have been raised in a good fashion and had his head in the right place it wouldn’t have happened. Back when the catholic church was still strict and Suicide was sacreligious nobody commited suicide. I mean, how often do you flip through the history books and find that someone jumps to suicide off of a castle tower? Its this darned liberal thinking nowdays. They make kids think they have rights. Gimme a break. At least wait’ till they develope their entire brain (no joke, psychology) and can think ahead. Shannon, what was your view on abortion, I think I missed it. You can, if you want, join the Laughatliberals group and post your own topic too. Ever since Jack left we have been lacking charisma…
shannon Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 3:09 am
If I could highlight the part about the “good Fashion” I would
shannon Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 3:12 am
Want to know now about the Bible, come on guys tic toc tic toc. Some on are you afraid? Do you know that you CANNOT give an answer? If all of you are SO smart I want to know the answer. Yes Kolran I do bring the Bible into this, I am a Christian after all, just not one like you
shannon Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 3:14 am
And everyone here is the downfall and lie of Kolran Fett:
Comment from Kolran Fett
Time: 1/26/2007, 11:58 pm
No comment shannon. I have made more points then I care too. I am glad that the otherside and I have found common ground. It’s time to move on. I have been arguing this topic for the last month. And by the way (shannon), I have not voted for a republican in my life. So stfu.
-Kolran Fett
Now at the end do all of you see where he typed STFU? Now I could be wrong but that indicates, to me at least, Shut the F**k Up. Am I wrong? He says he never curses. I suppose he only indicates.
nutslikebush Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 3:36 am
Do you ever get the impression that we have a completely different framework for understanding the world? The threat of hell, that seems like stuff for the weak minded to me. Christianity, studied it intensely and came to see it very differently than most of my other friends. My understanding of Christianity and its history: the message that Jesus brought to the world was sadly perverted by people who tried to capture his spirit and put it into mere words and the terribly limited theology of Hebrew monarchy. Jesus rejected that theology in no uncertain terms. To be human is to be God - that was the message of the “son of man”, as he referred to himself. I am convinced that Jesus, a man just like me, had a powerful experience that many others have had and it left him with fundamental insight into the human situation, something that contemporary Christians don’t often seem to grasp (even his disciples never seemed to understand him if you believe the “gospels”). “I and the Father are one.” He didn’t mean just him, personally. He meant every human was part of the fundamental fabric of the universe - the universe is God. The bible doesn’t come close to conveying the message of Jesus. Jesus could have written his message, but he knew that written words were perversions of his message. The Bible (which was translated, edited, and assembled by a group of lunatics in Nicaea) should be ritually burned every Easter to symbolize that we know that it is an inadequate representation of the fundamental message: be still and know that I am God - words only corrupt the experience of being god. As for hell and heaven; there is no hell, or heaven other than what you see in front of you right now and it can be either, depending entirely on the state of your mind. But the Christianity that I heard preached throughout my youth is spiritually impoverished and for fearful immature minds. One begins to awaken when you shake it off the perversion of Christianity. Be still. That’s all the religion you need.
nutslikebush Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 4:01 am
Sex is actually for entertainment only. If babies happen, that’s just a side effect in my opinion.
The Other Side Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 4:53 am
wow. kolran’s comments were pretty intense. they will get quite the response.
i have not read the articles that you sited, but seeing the dates of publication is enough question their credibility. they range in date from 1959 to 1994 which was a time of significant bias against homosexuals in society and the scientific community. the article from 1994 was based off of facts and science, actually looking at the brain. therefore little bias could be present. on the other hand, the studies showing the lack of parental acceptance were the oldest and merely showed homophobia. fathers who rejected their sons at that time were less accepting than today. people still relied on traditional values which was not accepting of homosexuals.
homosexuals have homosexual sex because they have a preference for the same-sex, just like how heterosexuals have a preference for the opposite sex. the spread of aids was a result of poor education about safe sex and promiscuity due to a lack of a marriage option. to say the only purpose for same-sex sex is to spread aids is hateful rhetoric. just like how opposite-sex sex can be the highest form of love, so too is same-sex sex.
this ignorance is similar to the ignorance that faces children of homosexuals. its not the child’s problem that people around them hate their parents. and its unfortunate that they are subjected to hate. but its the other peoples’ problem, not the child’s. furthermore, fearing your son will be raped is more hate that drives homophobia. homosexuals rarely rape children. more often than not it is a heterosexual that has the urge to rape. just like how you don’t rape every member of the opposite sex, homosexuals may find you attractive, but won’t act on their impulses.
homosexuality is not and was never a psychological disorder. to be a psychological disorder it needs to cause distress or impairment that is not a typical cultural response. besides homophobes, who does homosexuality impair?
stop trying to use junk science to prove the negatives of homosexuality. most of kolran’s comments were way off base and have been refuted.
and define “control” because that comes up a lot in your argument.
shannon Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 5:40 am
Oh and Kolran if you are ANY kind of a man you will address ALL of my questions. Not just some but ALL
shannon Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 7:06 am
Also for a subject you are tired of and seem to think you are oh so smart, why do you not post something of your very own? I mean I am sure to have an original thought it is difficult for someone like you but at least give it a shot. I mean lets not be a loser now. I have been waiting for a post from you to comment on
shannon Says: February 22nd, 2007 at 3:57 pm
No Kolran you also added that if he would have been from a better family who attended church it would not have happened. Once again do NOT call me out on cursing, you told me to STFU one day, so do not cast your stones. Yes I do curse to prevent myself from beating people like you to death with a tire iron. It is a little adult release. If the purpose of gay sex is to spread AIDS then why do more straight people have AIDS? Why is there only ONE documented case in the lesbian community? Yes you can get AIDS from oral sex, depends if you have lacerations in your mouth or genitals. You ARE an idiot, the population in the US is falling because more women are professionals now because though it is still a mans world more women are trying to make it a womans world. Your ridiculous statistic said NOTHING about single parents now did it, those women are straight. Another thing about that study is that my brother is gay, my father was the greatest dad on earth and had a very constructive life, as well as plenty of other gay men I know. Not only that look at the years this was published, come back with MORE evidence. Funny that I CAN have kids, insemenation. You truly think you are the hand of God don’t you.
nutslikebush Says: February 23rd, 2007 at 3:35 am
This story breaks my heart. 216 million Americans are scientifically illiterate. They can’t comprehend scientific articles on DNA, global warming, stem cell biology, health science. They don’t understand basic physics, biology, chemistry, neuroscience, geology, etc. And they are easily mislead by the likes of Rush Limbaugh and preachers who spouts falsehoods about science continuously. They are pooping in the pool of knowledge, with the tacit approval of the scientifically illiterate. Carl Sagan was right; Ignorance feeds on ignorance.
technologyreview.com/blog/duncan/17535/
shannon Says: February 23rd, 2007 at 3:47 am
Now did anyone else see where Kolran had never intended to curse? Everyone look closely and tell me what you think is intended by wtf.Comment from Kolran Fett
Time: 1/13/2007, 6:36 pm
Oh wow, the Other side, you don’t get it do you. If I had to guess I would say that you are just getting into politics.
1. Heterosexuality is to HAVE KIDS and homosexuality can only have AIDS.
2. No, it’s not illegal.
3. Homosexuality doesn’t hurt anyone? wtf! Okay, what about the guy who raped his male page? hmm?
1. Can hetero be homo? Yes, if you want to have man kind fall.
2. Scientifically proven… Male + Male= no more humans + disease
final point. SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE IS TO KEEP THE STATE OUT OF THE CHURCH! GOT THAT? STUDY HISTORY YOU DIMWIT AND STOP READING LIBERAL PLAYBOOKS!
shannon Says: February 23rd, 2007 at 3:49 am
Did you mean freak? Fudge? Fiddle? Or could it be F**k
Rob Says: February 23rd, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Sound’s like Shannon needs a nap-time.
And stop asking everybody to quote the Bible. Used in the wrong context it doesn’t prove anything, and besides, this debate covers homosexuality. Nothing else. So why do you want quotes from the last supper or ragnarok or Jesus’s parables? Gosh you’re an annoying person.
I’m glad we’ve never met personally.
John Says: February 23rd, 2007 at 11:57 pm
If you are refering to science in a discussion over homosexuality then you are simply stupid.
and fyi, a major reason (somewhere stated above) why people have homosexual feelings is because of the experiences they have in there family: mother faher, stepfather, stepmother sct…
My friend Jennifer in my photo class has been bi for the longest time and just resently has decided to be lesbian.
Her mom left her when she was younger and her dad beats her. they don’t let her go out or see boys….
her dad knows her orientation or atleast that she is bi.
Kolran Fett Says: February 24th, 2007 at 2:00 am
Shannon, I meant ‘what the fricken’ okay? Not a swearword, so frick you.
shannon Says: February 24th, 2007 at 2:03 am
You are the ones who brought the Bible into it, I want to know why that is the one thing you bring up. Period.<