A woman in a hot air balloon realized she was lost. She lowered her altitude
and spotted a man in a boat below. She shouted to him, ‘Excuse me, can you
help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don’t know
where I am.’
The man consulted his portable GPS and replied, ‘You’re in a hot air
balloon, approximately 30 feet above a ground elevation of 2346 feet above
sea level. You are at 31 degrees, 14.97 minutes north latitude and 100
degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude.’
She rolled her eyes and said, ‘You must be a Republican.’
‘I am,’ replied the man. ‘How did you know?’
‘Well,’ answered the balloonist, ‘everything you told me is technically
correct , but I have no idea what to do with your information, and I’m still
lost. Frankly, you’ve not been much help to me.’
The man smiled and responded, ‘You must be a Democrat.’
‘I am,’ replied the balloonist. ‘How did you know?’
‘Well,’ said the man, ‘you don’t know where you are or where you are going.
You’ve risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air. You made
a promise that you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your
problem. You’re in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but,
somehow, now it’s my fault.’
do you have any reason why people could hate america? can you empathize with their emotions? because you seem to have a lot of emotion.
so your saying that the minority actually has all the power? because i seem to remember that the bush administration was able to pass anything that they wanted. both parties have the opportunity to compromise to help america and only one party seems to be doing so. the other party is negotiating in bad faith and is doing everything they can to regain power.
look at the messaging of every major bill during the obama administration. democrats are marxists/socialists/nazis, they want to kill grandma, death panels, obama is from kenya/unamerican, they spread lies about taking away the 2nd amendment, that america is in trouble, fox news will always attack democrats what ever way they can, rush wants obama to ‘fail,’ fema internment camps…and i could find more if i had more time.
how have democrats been unfairly demonizing republicans?
ok, but what if there are no jobs and republicans keep blocking job creation policies? what if there are jobs being shipped overseas? it would be great to just help those in need get access to jobs, but in this day and age there are no jobs.
what prompted the bush administration to pass tarp? what was happening with the economy in 2007 and why was the economy in trouble?
I agree that showing America as positive until they don’t give a care about us would work, but why do you think that the terrorists would still not hate us even if we showed acceptance? There are people living in this very country who despise us even though we give them every opportunity for success.
Of course dems can block everything that republicans try to pass. I wouldn’t agree with it, but thats the way the balance of power goes. Thats the flaw in America’s political system.
How are republicans demonizing the other side? As I see it, democrats have been far more immature than republicans in that area. Like Rahm “dead fish” Emanuel sending the dead fish to a pollster who was late in delivering results, or Alan Grayson expressing how republicans want you to “die quickly” because they didn’t support the health care bill.
Point a man in the right direction, give him directions to stores that need workers, create new jobs. Dont wait on them and give them everything they need to succeed. Let them earn it.
The recession officially began in late 2007 with the bush bailouts (which were a disapointment) but when the stimulus was signed, and subsequently the hellth care bill, the deficit was raised by more than 40%. THAT massive spending.
the reason why i’m concerned with their view of us is to try and prevent providing more evidence for recruitment. you seem to be looking at small term reactions while i’m looking at the longer term. the more we show america as positive, the less effective recruiting will be for the terrorists. don’t you want to prevent future terrorism?
so now can democrats block everything that republicans try and pass? either way the minority cannot have the power to prevent anything from happening. one side cannot just perpetually shut down progress and americans don’t want that. and republicans are doing more than voting no, they are demonizing the other side. how can that be a good thing for america?
how can you help someone in need without providing some money?
When did the recession begin and what massive spending caused the economic downturn?
I think you and I are on different poles of the political AND emotional spectrum. I am focussed on our view of them, while you are focussed on their view of us. I do agree torture is barbaric, and I do think that there are peacefull muslims, but I take issue with the teaching, and the actions conducted by them.
By any form of interrogation I meant any form of non-advanced interrogation.
Republicans believe that the dems are hurting the country, therefore they are voting for what they believe in.
Taking money from a corporation takes money from millions of people. NOT GIVING money (because we dont take money from the poor, we give it to them) to one person only affects that one person. True if they suffer, then they are in a tight spot, but can you not find ANY way of helping them other than giving them money they dont earn?
Recession and significant unemployment? Massive spending.
can you see how torturing muslims portrays america negativelly in the middle east? can you see how barbaric torture is? can you view muslims as anything but less than human? because there are peaceful muslims out there.
you say that any form of interrogation is futile because the terrorists will never say anything yet you also provide evidence of torture working, the plot on la. so which is it: no interrogation works or torture works? or do you just want to see muslims suffer?
republicans aren’t voting for what they believe in. they are just trying to prevent democrats from any legislative victories. all republicans want to do is take control of power. why else would mitch mcconnell say that the republican’s main goal over the next two years is to make obama a one term president? republican ideas were refuted the last two elections, so why would they think that they can prevent democratic ideas?
if you take some money away from a corporation, they have more money and more means to support themselves. and they will make profit by any means necessary. if you take money away from a person in need, they have nothing. they will lose their house and struggle with poverty. do you see the difference between a corporation and a poor person? can you see the difference in the situations when money is taken from a millionare and from someone on welfare? who has a harder struggle to survive?
castor, what caused the recession and significant unemployment?
How do I propose we deal with them? Call me primitive but you know, force can always shut an enemy up. The war on terror and the troops in the middle east kept them occupied, but once the troops are withdrawn, the all hell is going to break loose.
Oh my god, do you not understand?! ANY form of interrogation used against a terrorist is redundant! I don’t understand how you can believe that you can extract information from someone who would rather die than give up his operations. And what do you propose we do? Do you want to BARGAIN with someone who takes as many lives as possible? Why? What have they done to deserve such hospitality?
Whats wrong with America is the chronic blame on a group of politicians for voting against something which they don’t believe in and think will hurt the country. The republicans are doing what they believe is the right thing to do and you bash them for it.
Loss of financial aid does not result in death. If someone has to struggle in either case, then why would it have to be the companies which make up half of America’s economical backbone?
Due to the signing of the stimulus bill (which was supposed to actually create jobs) America has lost a total of 2.8 MILLION jobs, pushing unemployment towars 10 percent. Why? Because of the massive spending! Why do you think that doubling economic spending could not help America out of the Depression? Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau said that “we have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. . . . After eight years of this administration we have even more unemployment than when we started . . . and an enormous debt to boot!”
Sounds like America under obama.
so what are we supposed to do with the middle east? how do you propose that we deal with extremists and prevent future attacks?
the evidence you provide about the ineffectiveness of non-torture interrogation is about a women using her body to try and sway the terrorists? that’s not at all what i meant and you know it. talking to detainees works. unethical techniques don’t.
so you agree with my issue, that republicans are only saying no. they aren’t providing anything to the democratic process except obstructionism. and how is that helpful for america? if the minority continued to obstruct, how is anything supposed to get done? that’s whats wrong with america.
can you see the parallel with letting corporations and the needy struggle? if the government doesn’t provide tax cuts, companies struggle, if the government doesn’t provide entitlements, the needy struggles. you’re ok with one but not the other, as am i. but businesses have the resources to struggle and survive. the needy don’t have much so if they struggle, they die. why do you protect the corporations so much?
and castor, what caused the unemployment rate increas?
You seem to think that America is the ONLY country that the arabic countries have an undeniable hatred for. I said earlier that England expressed acceptance for muslim culture years ago, yet on May 22, 2008 there was an exeter bombing by an islamic extremist. Terrorist attacks even happen within their own countries! The sunni and shiite muslims are in a constant conflict with sunni parents and their children being shot coming out of a convinient store in june, and an activist of the Sunni Tehrik was gunned down in the limits of garden police station on Sunday.
These people, these muslims, they are an unstable breed. They cannot be controlled at all. They have grown up in a society in which right and wrong are reversed and their leaders brainwash them into service for deplorable causes after promising them “paradise”.
They cannot be dealt OR reasoned with. Their hatred towards us is unfounded, illogical, and it will remain as such.
I laughed at your statement about prosecuting them. Number one, they are terrorists to the United States of America, as such, they are in no way entitled to the rights to remain silent, the rights to attorney, and the right to fair trial. They are enemies of the country and deserve a swift execution.
An interrogator in Gitmo DID try to get info out of a prisoner peacefully, by way of seduction. The female interrogator wanted to “break him,” she removed her uniform top to expose a tight-fitting T-shirt and began taunting the detainee, touching her breasts, rubbing them against the prisoner’s back.
The detainee looked up and spat in her face.
Now, I do admit that the way she attempted to retrieve the information was disgusting and horrid, but you can see how they react! They are indignant to any form of reason.
(Oh and by opposite reaction, it does not infer that the action taken should be the opposite of the action recieved, it means it should be given by the pposite side… but that’s beside the point.)
You keep refering to my emotional connection to 9/11. I’ll ask you to keep in mind, I don’t just detest the reasoning with islamic terrorists, I hate reasoning with ANY terrorist. Anyone who aims to kill as many people as possible in one event deserves to have their device misfire and kill themself instead, not just muslim extremeists.
The republicans voted against the 9/11 bill because they did not approve the procedure of the funding, the anti-rape ammendment was actually shot down by a leading DEMOCRAT, the health care bill would be universal and a burden to taxpayers, the stimulus bill was a phenominal waste of money, the immigration bills proposed by the democrats would provide amnesty and voting rights for illegals, and democrats need to slow down their rapid-pass policy system in order to converse with republicans about the aspects of a bill before slamming it down congress’s throat!
And the republicans use the fillibusters, because it is the only way that they can prevent democratic policies from being implemented.
So, you are saying that if an inexperienced business is not prepared for the tax cuts expiring, then too bad? Thats it? Just let them struggle? Wait, I have a better idea, why not save everybody the trouble and just KEEP THEM? And significant unemployment?? The current unemployment rate is 9.2%, while the unemployment rate from 2000 to 2008 did not exceed 6.6%. And THEEEEEEN when a certain person was elected for a certain office in 2008, the unemployment rate went from 6.6% in november of 08, and progressively climbed to 9% in January of 2009.
Nice job democrats.
why is torture a better alternative than talking with the terrorists?
to significantly decrease terrorism in the world, we need to change the views of america held by the middle east. we need to reach out with humanitarian efforts directly to middle eastern countries which includes treating our detainees with respect. now treating them with respect doesn’t mean that we don’t prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. if someone wants to harm america, they should spend the rest of their lives in prison. respect means that we allow for basic human rights. by showing america as humane, it takes away a major recruiting tool. if we want to eradicte systematic terrorism, we need to take a systematic approach…changing the hearts and minds of those who may stray to extremism.
and treating detainees with respect works. are you saying that our men and women interrogating detainees are only capable of violence? they are highly trained in interrogations and can get information humanelly. and again, we are morally superior and better than terrorists. by you saying that every action has an equal but opposite reaction, wouldn’t that support my position…doing the opposite of torture? but that’s beside the point.
so talking to terrorists makes america weak? that is a point of view from someone so emotionally charged regarding 9-11 that any other ideas besides revenge are emasculated. using america’s intelligence and morals are somehow thrown out for the sake of inflicting harm on the evil doers. no matter how ineffective and evil torture is and no matter how effective talking is, people fueled with emotions will side witht he former. and as i have said earlier, making decisions on emotions neglect rational thinking. and that’s the difference between america and the extremists…we don’t make decision fueled on emotions like hatred or revenge.
bills blocked by republicans: funding for health care for 9-11 responders, senator franken’s anti-rape amendment to the defense appropriations bill, benefits for homeless veterans, health care, the jobs bill, small business lending bill, financial reform, stimulus bill, oil spill liability, political ad disclosure bill, immigration windfall oil profits tax bill to name a few. republicans used the filibuster 112 times in the last year and expect to excede that total this year. the most democrats have used is 58. so republicans are blocking progress at an alarming rate.
companies who will be affected by the tax cuts expiring have the profits to accomodate the taxes. and they should know that the cuts could expire in 2010 and should plan for that. if they don’t they aren’t very good at business. and you’re assuming that by taking out more taxes, the costs will trickle down to consumers. that’s as baseless as the idea that giving companies they will trickle down the benefits to the consumers. we tried that idea the last 8 years and it resulted in increasing prices, decreased wages and significant unemployment. and because of the result of the tax cuts, the deficit and national debt has skyrocketed. so why should we continue to let the super rich have tax cuts when its been shown not to work?
I’m not saying that we HAVE to torture the terrorists, we don’t have to do anything, but it is CERTAINLY a better choice than building a relationship with them. They are either too stupid to understand it, or they are too well-trained to fall for it.
Tell me, just how you plan on making terrorists view America as respectful? Bargain?? Bribe them? Give them a nice comfy room in a low-security sector of the prison? How do you know that they will give legitimate information if we do that? How can you trust them that much?
Dealing with an enemy, talking harsh situations out, doing everything possible to avoid conflict, these things show cowardness, unwillingness to fight, pacifism. Weakness. And I never said that I wanted to sink to their level, but every action has an equal and opposite REACTION. If they are soooooooo offended about us torturing them, then maybe they should have thought about that before killing countless innocent people. A handful of terrorists does not equal countless innocents.
You seem to believe that the republicans are blocking every bill that is thrown in, could you list some of these bills?
I said that the democrats have no need to work with the republicans. I was refering to the situation at hand, not overall. And you’ve been saying over and over and over that the republicans have no ideas, but they want to invest heavily into renewable energy deployment, signaling an opportunity for bipartisan support for clean energy technology policies. This is a very helpful plan. Another bill covers the prospect of keeping illegal immigrants out of our colleges. This bill would help for one, because they are ILLEGAL, and for two because they would not be permitted to occupy space in the economy that is being taken up by American citizens.
No, letting the tax cuts expire is not a tax increase, but by this time businesses have gotten accustomed to the amount of income that they have been permitted to accumulate. They have spent money which will be taken from them again, and so, they will have to drive up their prices. This leads to higher prices on goods, particulary in large corporations such as gas companies and superstores, which then leads to inflation, which leads to an even worse economy than we have now!
torture has shown to be counter-productive when used. the victims will say anything to make the torture stop so the information that they give is false. and if they provide legit info, it can’t be used in court. but thats not even the point. torture is illegal and morally reprehensible. castor, you’re saying that we need to lower ourselves to the level of the terrorists? we’re better than they are, that’s what makes america great. we are the moral compass of the world and if we throw away our ethics we demean our country. so why even use torture if its not effective or the right thing to do?
there are some terrorists that will never say anything no matter what we do to them. fair enough, they can rot in prison. but there are also those who are exploited by the terrorists to serve their cause. those recruits view america as filled with people who advocate torture and insult islam because the terrorists spread the hate that is being spewed from america. but if those recruits see americans as respectful, they might see that they were exploited and be more open to giving acutal actionable intelligence. and its shown to work more effectivelly. if we show ourselves to be a moral country then the terrorists won’t have anything to use to recruit. to take down systematic terrorism, we need to change mindsets.
we have the largest military in the world. we are the most powerful country in the world. who are we trying to prove our strength to? the terrorists that are being destroyed by our military force? how are we being viewed as weak? and why do you want to sink to the level of the terrorists?
and i will explain this again…no matter how many democrats are in the senate, if the number is less than 60, they cannot pass anything. its basic congressional procedure. republicans are stopping as much as they can, they have fillibustered the most bills ever because they are saying no to everything. republicans will fillibuster everything so for the democrats to pass anything they need to appease conservatives to get to 60 votes. so to actually pass bills, democrats need to work with republicans or nothing will be done.
if republicans want to move america forward, what are they proposing to do? castor, you keep saying that republicans cannot affect policy because democrats don’t need them to, but that logic is flawed. if you can see that republicans do play a part in policy, how can you explain their actions?
ironically, obama is the american dream. he grew up in a single parent household and is now president. and as president, he lowered taxes for 95% of americans. and he wants to continue to keep taxes low for those people and let the tax cuts expire for the wealthy. republicans passed the tax cuts under the condition that they expire this year, so its not a tax increase. and when america is in a debt crisis caused by republicans, raising taxes needs to be on the table.
Building a “relationship” with a terrorist is the stupidest idea you’ve drooled so far.
If we take the enemy under our wing, it portrays America as being a weak nation. And if it’s so disgusting to hurt people, then why do the terrorists do it and everyone wants to forgive them, and then Americans do it, and all of a sudden it’s disgusting?
And the Government recieved inel that the underwear bomber had ties to terrorist organizations and was an extremeist, but they allowed him to buy a ticket to the United States, did they not?
I don’t believe that America will allow islam to take over, but that doesn’t mean that they will not try, there in lies the problem. People didn’t think America could be attacked in such a way as 9/11 either. People didn’t think the Titanic could sink, nor that the hindenburg would explode.
If rich people keep money with out giving it to the government it does not add to their wealth it stops it from being cut. They don’t get any more they they normally would without the government taking part of it. I believe that if someone earns 1 billion dollars, then they deserve it. And they deserve to pass it down through their family and do whatever they want with it.
We support the rich because they represent what we aspire to be. They represent success. They represent the American dream, to make it in their lives. Without rich people, where are the role models to show the result of hard work? Of rising from nothing to excellence? And I agree that America needs taxes to function. What I don’t agree with is the constant raising of them.
I have plenty of friends who care about politics, in fact, over half of them are liberal. And then I know a lot of people who couldn’t care less about them. So tell me, if you didn’t care for politics, why would you answer a survey instead of simply ignoring it? Precisely, you wouldn’t.
The democrats have no need to work with the republicans. Why would they? They outnumber them (for now) and can pass anything and everything that they want. And since obama is just a puppet for congress, then they can’t rely on him vetoing anything either.
Yes, the republicans would be up in arms, but then, the democrats don’t have a reason to care, because the republicans cannot do a thing to stop them now can they?
I do want to improve America, but I want the right group of people to be working on it, not the democrats. The democrats are not trying to move America forward, they are trying to make it like the rest of the world. American should NOT be like the rest of the world.
You know what? Fine! I was wrong aout the house being majorly democrat during the bush era. It was a slip, a mistake, I was misinformed, but to base my entire political ideology off of one statement is immature.
torture has shown not to work. it puts people in such discomfort that they will say anything to stop the procedure. on the other hand, building a relationship with the captive and showing that americans can be humane has proven more effective. people who want to use torture seem to want to see the captives suffer out of revenge…and that’s very dangerous.
in august of 2001, bush received a security briefing that was titled: “bin laden determined to strike in the us.’ bush did nothing and sent the intelligence to a low level agency. also, the clinton administration provided bush’s administration with intel on terrorism that was virtually ignored.
man you are paranoid about islam. there is a difference between a group of people immigrating to america and trying to encorporate their culture and a religion taking over america. do you really think that americans are going to let sharia law take over.
okay, so if rich people don’t give money to the government, they keep it…which adds to their wealth. they can use that wealth to invest and make more money. if rich people aren’t getting richer, then why is the income gap increasing? and you really think that people who were born rich and inherited money and hedge fund managers deserve their money? does anyone deserve $1 billion? and what will they do with all of that wealth? they have so much money to live more than well so keeping money when they don’t need it is greedy.
and why do tea partiers support the rich so much? they lead the corporations that ship jobs oversees, or the people who brought down the stock market, or they are trying to buy this elections for republicans…i understand the idea that the money that someone earns is best spent by the individual. but how does that pay for roads, or bridges, or police officers, or snow plows? america is turing into an oligarchy with the rich controlling the country.
i’m calling people stupid who don’t make informed decision about politics. how many people that you know have any idea about politics? i know many of my friends don’t care, and they are being asked about opinions about policies. many americans are either underinformed or apathetic about politics and that’s why i’m skeptical about polls.
republicans can do more than say no. they can activelly work with democrats on policy to try and help america. they won’t get everything they want but they can fight for parts of policy that they feel strongly about (for instance they got significant tax cuts in the stimulus package). republicans cannot move forward with their agenda because they were voted out of office. i gaurantee that if democrats were obstructing republican policies, you would be up in arms.
republicans controlled both houses of congress from 1995 until 2005, except in 2001. thats ten years of republican control, even when clinton was in office. to say that the majority of congress was democratic under bush is a blatant lie. look at what he passed, tax cuts, authorization for war, no child left behind, etc. he had little trouble moving forward on his agenda.
your second to last statement is telling. you don’t want to improve america or care about formulating ideas, you want to bring down democrats. and that’s what republicans in congress are doing. while democrats are trying to move america forward, republicans are callously trying to prevent that. you admit as much. that’s why they don’t deserve to serve in office.
and you are so blind to the fact that your policies don’t work. by falsely claiming that democrats have been in power, you make yourself believe that they are the cause for america’s problems. but the facts show that republicans were in power and they caused many of the problems. its one thing to be ignorant of the facts, but you seem to consciouslly neglect contrary evidence to support your views that liberals are evil.
I believe we should do ANYTHING possible to keep America and its people safe! Why WOULDN’T we? What, you would rather get bombed by another terrorist attack than torture someone who believes in killing innocent people?! How do you propose we get the information out of them? Talk it out?
Just because Bush was in the White House that doesn’t mean his policies caused 9/11. You contradict yourself a lot, don’t you?
Calling all muslims evil may not help the cause, but its better than letting them silently overrun our country. Abdul Faruk wrote a book in arabic talking about the stealth jihad in the United States. They are talking about silently taking over America just like they did to England.
Giving tax cuts to the rich do not help them get richer, they PREVENT them from having an unreliable government from taking the money with they rightfully earned. If someone is successful enough to get rich, why do the liberals always want to punish them for it?
“and polls are meaningless because people are stupid.”??
What the heck is wrong with you?! Youre calling people stupid for taking a survery and expressing their opinions?! Polls show what the majority of America want so youre calling the majority of America stupid… you really do have an open mind, you know that?
The reason that the Republicans are not trying to pass anything is because they CAN’T. They say no because that’s all they can do, they can’t pass anything because it’ll be voted against by dems, they can’t stop anything because it’ll be voted FOR by dems. I dont know if you’ve noticed or not, but the majority of the house is DEMOCRAT, and it’s been that way for a long time, not just since 2008. The house was mainly democratic during the bush era, but nobody acknowledges that when they bash bush, do they? That’s why the country is going down.
Personally I support the Republicans because they are doing everything in their power to stop the dems in their tracks. Democrats have been persuing their agendas since before bush. If Kerry had been elected (god forbid) then this same situation would be happening then.
Im pretty sure I have been answering all of you’re questions as best I can. If you find my reasoning to be flaud, well, I really couldn’t care any less. You don’t like me? Leave.
so you’re saying that the ends justify the means? you are okay with america torturing people just to keep us safe? so we are supposed to suspend our morals just to get information that we want to hear? that sounds like a decision made on fear and emotion instead of using logic. but morals only get in the way.
and just because obama was in the white house doesn’t mean that his policies are what caused those acts of terrorism. correlation does not prove causation.
i don’t want to just brush off what happened on 9-11. but i do see the difference between extremists and the rest of islam. maybe if we show compassion then people who might turn to extremists won’t. but calling all muslims evil will not help the cause.
and there are no possibilities of death panels. the fact that you are even still considering it means that you are way too paranoid of government.
if people making over $250,000 get a tax break, they do not re-invest it back into the economy. they save it. so they don’t continue to buy things. how many boats, houses, planes, etc do people need? how does someone spent $1 million? and only 2% of small businesses would fall into that bracket and they include the Chicago Tribune and large oil refinery builders. so giving the rich tax cuts do nothing to help the economy, it only helps people who are rich get richer.
obama is wanting to let the upper bracket tax cuts expire and continue the middle class tax cuts. those families will re-invest the money because they have to. if you spend all your money on food and shelter then any other money will be spent on that or basic luxeries.
and polls are meaningless because people are stupid. do some actual analysis on the economy instead of using polls because that’s more convincing.
when the country votes in a democrat into the white house and gives significant control of congress to them, i think that shows that americans agree with democratic ideas. since the 2008 election, republicans have done nothing to be bi-partisian or to add any ideas to democratic policies. all they have done is obstruct and say no. america wanted democratic ideas, but republicans have been stepping in the way of those ideas. that is how they are going against americans.
why did you redirect the conversation to me instead of answering my question? can you address the obvious double standard here?
Did you not see anything? The CIA believes that the interrogations are the reason that we have not have another 9/11.
Oh and I suppose that the fort hood incident, the underwear bomber, and the attempted bombing in New York show that obama is more reliable?
And dont say that they were prevented, because the man and fort hood killed many people, and the muslims failed themselves.
It WAS the largest terroist attack on American soil, and you want to brush it off and turn the other cheek.
I’m not refuting the issue of the attornys because I agree that it was wrong. Simple.
And furthermore, I did NOT say that I believed that the death panels actually existed, I said that it was a possibility.
The middle east was already jacked up when we went over there, and it got more jacked up because they didnt want us over there. And it was not a threat to America, it was a threat to israel! Our ally.
Approximately 40% of those polled said that expiring top-income-bracket tax cuts would hinder economic recovery, while 26% said that doing so would help the economy (FYI, thats a majority) And higher taxes are generally believed to be a drag on the economy since it leaves consumers and businesses with less money to spend. And since the upper class spends the majority of the money in America, less money is pushed into the system and people will start saving their money rather than spending it.
And finally how did republicans go against the majority of Americans?
the suspect that was interrogated for the attack on los angeles “provided information…” months after the attack. so the information from that interview could not have affected the attack. but that’s beside the point. you are defending torture. and there is no moral or legal defense for torture. and people defend bush for keeping us safe after 9-11, but his neglegiance contributed to 9-11. he was in office for the largest terrorist attack on american soil.
the problem with the us attorneys that were fired wasn’t that they didn’t search out voter fraud cases, they were fired because they didn’t search for DEMOCRATIC voter fraud. they were told to engage in partisian politics when they were part of the judiciary. i think that is the politicizing of the judiciary which you asked me to provide evidence of and which you are not refuting.
you also believe in death panels and your evidence is that old people don’t deserve care? again with no evidence about where in the health care reform this issue is. its baseless and a gross misunderstanding of the policy. this point has been debunked…thoroughly. the reform is that doctors can bill insurance to have conversations with patients on their end of life care. nothing about beaurocrats deciding who lives and dies. you want this bill to be socialized medicine so bad that you will throw out lies to prove your point.
ways to increase the deficit are to decrease revenue streams, tax cuts, and to increase spending, the iraq war. if we don’t have as much money to pay for more spending the deficit increases. and both can be long term, extending the war or tax cuts, and will indefinately add to the deficit. make sense?
and if the iraq war was so admirable and needed, then why was america lied into it? where are the weapons of mass destruction? the ties between sadaam and al-queda? trying to defend an illegal war after the fact is revisionist history. saddaam sucked, but he was no imminent threat to america. and now thousands of american troops are dead and we have worsened the middle east.
how do tax cuts for the wealthy decrease the deficit and decrease unemployment? and to pre-empt your reasons, tax cuts don’t do either. just look at how the bush tax cuts worked for the deficit and jobs during the bush administration. why do you care about rich people’s taxes?
i keep reiterating what republicans are doing because it puts a hole in your criticism of democrats. you keep saying that democratic policies don’t work while republicans are doing everything in their power to prevent the policies from working. so how can you be so sure that democratic policies don’t work? and again, why is it okay for republicans to go against the will of the american people after the 2008 election but democrats need to adjust to current polls?
The information provided by those under advanced interrogation helped in preventing a terrorist attack on Las Angeles and produced information about the terrorist organization’s key operatives and its operations in Iraq. The Justice Department states that the CIA believes ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al-Qaida has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.
I do not know about Monica Goodling, but I think that the US attornys would find it beneficial to actively search out voter fraud cases. Voter fraud is a VERY dishonorable charge and is comparable to cheating an election. This is much like acorn did with people registering to vote as “Mickey Mouse” or Elvis.
I believe that it IS possible that the death panels are real, because why would it be worth a hospital’s time to work on someone who is terminally ill or elderly, when they can be treating someone who is young and requires attention? This is what scares me the most about socialized healthcare, the decisions of who lives and dies.
Explain to me how the war in iraq is one of the heaviest burdens on the national debt. And even if it is, why would you say that it isn’t a good cause? Why would we not want to do anything we can to smooth out the middle-east in any way? Why would we not want to keep iraq from overrunning israel? The Islraelies are our allies and we need to defend them as best we can.
How have the bush tax cuts raised the deficit? Failing to extend the Bush-era tax cuts will actually increase the deficit and the unemployment rate. The democrats fail to acknowledge that if all of the Bush-era tax cuts are allowed to expire, marginal tax rates will increase for every working American. The Obama administration has proposed a plan that extends the tax cuts only to families making less than $250,000. Under this proposal, here is how the top two income tax bracket will rise:
The 33% bracket rises to 36%
The 35% bracket rise to 39.6%
That doesn’t sound like economic placidity.
You say that there were no job productions under Bush, well that certainly sounds better than job REDUCTION. In Lousisana alone the dems have cost us 12000 jobs.
I already said that the republicans needed to work on their act, but the more I converse with you, the more attractive their policies appear.
the case for the iraq war was based on unethical law practices by lawyers like john yoo. their opinions allowed for the torture that provided the “evidence” for the war. monica goodling was put in a position to hire and fire people based on no qualifications. and she used her position to hire only those partial to the bush administration. the bush justice department fired nine us attorneys because they did not actively search for democratic voter fraud cases. bush invocked an unprecidented amount of state secrets privilege to cover up embarassing policies. alberto gonzales. the confirmation of roberts and alito have made the supreme court far right and activist. is that enough?
castor, you continually accuse the democrats of dishonesty. but what about the opposition to health care reform? how honest were they? they tried to convince people that death panels were real. people believed many of the opposition because they don’t care about politics as we do. they believed that nonsense because they were emotional and uninformed. the polls might have shown an opposition, but how informed were those people?
again, democrats were elected in 2008 because the majority of americans agreed with democratic policies. so to reverse your question, why do republicans think they had america’s support in opposing everything democratic from day one? if you’re telling me that democrats need to follow the trends in america, then why didn’t republicans do the same in 2008? democrats should always temper their policies to appease republicans but republicans never have to cross the aisle. that is a huge double standard. and the media is lapping up that meme.
policies take years to be enacted. the first parts of the health care bill are being implemented with many of the large scale parts beginning in 2014. changes don’t happen overnight. there needs to be structural foundations built, people hired and logistics to be considered. these things aren’t as easy as you think they are. two years is not enough to see any tangible evidence of success. like i have said before, policy is very complicated and needs time.
i have already explained the republican’s role in the debt, but i will say it again because it destroys the republican argument about democratic spending. the main contributers to the national deficit are: the wars in iraq and afghanistan, the bush tax cuts, the economic recovery, TARP and the economic downturn. only one of these policies are directly affected by obama: the economic recovery. and that was a one time expenditure that will not significantly add to the deficit. all the rest were bush era results and the two largest, the economic downturn and the tax cuts, are caused by conservative policies. de-regulation of wall street significantly contributed to the housing bubble and the recession. furthermore, the lack of job creation under bush is preventing successful recovery. the unpaid bush tax cuts are preventing billions of dollars of revenue being added to the economy. both examples could continue indefinately and continue to add to the debt.
castor, can you stop focusing on the democrats and, for a minute, take a look at what republicans have been doing? can you acknowledge the negativity of the republican’s behavior?
Just where do you get the information that it was the Bush administration caused the judiciary branch to be politicized?
what if the democrats pushed the legislation through because it was the only way they could get it passed? would that be a reason why the health care bill was pushed through so fast?
Once again you make my own point. Why do the democrats think that they know everything that America wants, when the health care bill was opposed in the polls when they passed it? They saw what America wanted but they didnt care.
If the democrats are able to make their policies more conservative to appeal to the majority of America, then i applaud them for it. I have no issue. It could even go against my own views, but as long as the MOJORITY of America is appeased, then I would reluctantly accept it. But since congress’s approval rating is 47% and dropping (47% is less than 50%) I would say that the majority of America is dissatisfied.
Bush’s Stats
SAT score was 1206 (566 verbal, 640 math)
cumulative undergraduate GPA at Yale was 2.35
How can you say that the dems haven’t had a chance to let their plans succeed? They’ve been in power for two years now! If their plans have not shown positive feedback by now, how can they ever? Once AGAIN, show me how it was the republican’s fault for the debt and the bad economy.
You said that we shouldn’t have people who are THAT partisan in office, look at the democrats, the administrations, the judges they are empowering. They all have their own leftist agendas.
“to you last point about liberals. they were voted into office in 2008 because americans wanted change from the failed policies of the bush administration.”
Until they realised that they had chosen the greater of two evils.
so because the bush administration politicized the judiciary, that means that the cbo, a totally different branch, is also tainted? just using a blanket excuse that no part of the government can be trusted is convinient and lazy and does not address the facts.
what if the democrats pushed the legislation through because it was the only way they could get it passed? would that be a reason why the health care bill was pushed through so fast? they were faced with such factless and ruthless opposition by tea partiers in town hall meetings that they needed to work quickly to get something passed. the bill already was watered down so to pass anything remotely close to reform, congress needed to pass it within days of being released. the opposition did not care that there were no death panels or that the misinformation they were getting was from the insurance companies. so how could the democrats not only work with people like that, but also fight against the lies? they couldn’t, so they needed to force the bill through congress.
also, democrats cannot pass anything in the face of the unprecedented republican obstructionism. you need to read up on parlimentary procedures. it doesn’t matter that democrats have a majority in the senate because they still do not have the numbers to override a fillibuster. to do so, they need 60 votes. there are only 59 senators that could vote with democrats. 59 is less than 60 so the democrats are stuck. to get enough people, blue dog democrats or republicans, to vote for their bills to pass cloture democrats need to make bills that appeal to conservatives. as a result, any of the more liberal parts of any bill are scrapped because conservatives won’t vote for anything remotely liberal. that’s what happened with the health care bill. if you can deny the basic procedural facts of the senate, then you are purposelly ignoring reality. again, because democrats cannot acheive 60 votes, nothing can move past the fillibuster and be voted on.
since when has america been liberal? since bush was elected? how has america turned liberal over the 8 years that bush was in office? also, what was bush’s gpa at yale and harvard? how successful was he when he owned the rangers or his oil rig? anyone can get into an ivy league school if their daddy pulls strings. also, isn’t the tea party against those east coast elites?
to you last point about liberals. they were voted into office in 2008 because americans wanted change from the failed policies of the bush administration. the democrats have been trying to pass legislation to at least try and improve the country but have not had many successes because of republicans. so one party has been trying to improve the country (you might not agree with them but they at least have ideas) and the other party has done nothing over the past two years to contribute. and republicans want to regain congress? why should they deserve that chance when for the past two years all they have done is say no? true, democrats want power, i would hope they would. but with that power, they are going to continue to try and seeks solutions. what are republicans going to do with the power if they get back control of congress? return america to the failed policies of the bush administration? they have no new ideas so that’s what seems like is going to happen.
castor, you keep saying that liberals will do this or will do that. how can you objectivelly predict what will happen especially when viewed through your tea party eyes? on the other side, there are tangible results of republican policies (skyrocketing debt, the financial crisis, poor job growth, two wars, a growing income gap…) to show that republican ideas literally do not work. democrats have not been given a chance to let their policies work, and you know that. that’s why you are making baseless predictions.
all the republicans and tea parties do is complain and say no without providing ideas. they are so anti-liberal and use their energy to denegrate liberals that they have no time to come up with solutions. do we really want people in office that partisian?
The cbo was created as a bipartisan group, so was the judicial system, but we can all see how politics has influenced that as well.
If the health care bill is massive and complicated, then why were they only given 72 hours to read through it? Here’s why: The dems were is such a hurry to get this bill passed, that they slammed it down the throat of congress. The reason they were in such a hurry was that they knew if the bill got out, people would actually read it and may have had second thoughts. If they were not afraid of people changing their minds, then why didnt they give them more time to read it?
Youre telling me you think that the health care bill and all of obama’s policies are not even “remotely liberal”.
Then you have absolutely not idea what liberalism is.
You also say that it is hard to get anything passed in congress, that may be true, but not when the majority of congress is leaning left. Every democrat voted for the health care bill, the republicans were outnumbered. So yeah, liberals are in control of congress an if you deny it, then youre just as ignorant as those who dont know who joe biden is.
Every tea partier is uniformed and angry because we have lived in a liberal country long enough. You say they are not qualified for office, did you know that George Bush graduated from Yale AND Harvard law school? I would say he was VERY qualified.
All liberals are are spoiled people who will stop at absolutely NOTHING to stay in office and keep their power. And then they claim that everything they say is correct, attempting to pass the delusion that all of America is on their side. I have news for you, more people showed up at the march on washington, than ANY of the liberal rallies.
Liberals are going to put this country in chaos and then they will beg the conservatives for help, because we are the ones with the guns.
ok, castor, you’re still not address my issues with counter arguments. you’re just discounting them for erroneous reasons.
for instance, the cbo’s numbers cannot be trusted because they are part of the government. “The CBO was created as an independent nonpartisan agency by the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974.” from wikipedia. just because something is part of the government it doesn’t mean that its flawed. that is just a knee jerk reaction from someone who doesn’t trust anything to do with the government and has no argument for the facts.
the health care bill is massive and complicated. and that’s exactly how it needs to be. it’s going to significantly change health care in america and needs to account for many specifics. also, it needs to prevent abuse and misuse with very specific wording. policy is a very difficult thing to do, especially when democrats need to parse their words to appease republicans. how simple to you want an overhaul of the health care system to be?
no one extra gets government provided health care besides those on medicare or medicade. that is a lie and the basis of your argument for socialized medicine. there is a mandate that people get health care but there is no expansion of the government’s health care program. no universal health care or single payer because republicans prevented that from being included in the bill. you haven’t mentioned how difficult it is to get anything passed in congress, probably because that puts a huge hole in your argument about obama being a socialist. how can the bill be socialist when nothing even remotely liberal can get passed?
castor, you might not represent the entire tea party, but your statements and lack of ideas are exactly the same as those running for office through the tea parties. every tea partier running for office is uninformed and angry. they are not qualified for office and are bad for america.
Exactly! The far left says that the health care bill is not liberal enough, even when it it is already VERY liberal! So just how much more leftist can they get?
6 in 10 Americans believe that the bill will increase the deficit, because 6 in 10 Americans are clearly smarter than you are. And nobody can understand the bill because it is obnoxiously large and they were only given 72 hours to peruse through it.
You frustrate me with your thick-headedness. The GOVERNMENT’S agency is going to support it because the GOVERNMENT’S agency works for the GOVERNMENT who made the thing! Why could people not understand the bill? Well I just stated that.
You tell me to read both sides (when I have) and yet I am still strongly conservative. You say you have read both sides, and yet you are still strongly liberal, do you see a pattern here?
Let me see, what part of the health care bill is socialized… you know I really dont kno- WAIT a minuuuute…
Here is EXACTLY how the health care bill is socialized:
Illegals and others can get free access to health care at the taxpayer’s expense.
Taxpayer’s have no choice but to provide for others using cuts out of their own salary.
Happy? Of course you aren’t.
And lastly, I directly said earlier that I do not represent the embodiement of conservatism OR the teaparty movement. You really are in a rush to blame everything on them, aren’t you?
castor, did you actually read the articles that you provided? because if you did then you would see more analysis of why the numbers are so skewed against health care:
cnn: the cbo’s assessment of the bill determined that the bill’s offsets would reduce the deficit by $143 billion the next decade and $1 trillion the next decade. isn’t that what the tea partiers want? deficit reduction? also, one in five respondents who were against the bill said that it was not liberal enough. so that means that the amount of people that oppose the bill because it is “socialized medicine” is 43%.
cbs: even in the face of the stats from the cbo about deficit reduction, 6 in 10 americans think that the health care bill will increase the deficit. and half of the people responding say that they don’t understand the bill.
sooooo, even though the government’s assessment agency says that the bill is going to reduce the deficit, people believe otherwise. probably because people don’t understand the bill. and why could that be? maybe because right wingers have been flooding the debate with mis-information like about death panels. so instead of mindlessly throwing out stats, use your own brain to read the full article to make an informed assessment…with both sides.
is that thoughful enough analysis of the issue with my brain for you? so here is a question for you: what specific parts of this policy make it “socialized medicine?” and please don’t lead me to websites, use your own knowledge of the issue to give specifics.
why i want to know about what you think about how to fix the economy is because you represent many people in the tea parties. angry, but for no good reason. and that anger clouds any rational judgement which shows through in debates. that anger prevents people from thoughful analysis of the issues. and people with this mentality want to govern this country? what will they acheive if they get elected? nothing. that’s what freaks me out, that people who don’t deserve to run for office might actually be elected to congress. what happened to people being qualified to run for office? tea parties are detrimental to america.
If you casn find a site proving that obamacare is NOT socialized, then prove it, because I’ve tried.
You appear to be using every other means of conveying your points BESIDES your brain here, lib.
No, ok? The majority of Americans do not like democratic ideas. Look at the polls, man.
CNN (Liberal site)
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/22/cnn-poll-americans-dont-like-health-care-bill/
CBS (Another leftist site)
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20001700-503544.html
CNBC (VERY liberal site)
http://www.cnbc.com/id/37884513/Obama_Approval_Rating_Slips_to_45_NBC_WSJ_Poll
Now notice I even left ot Rasmussen and Gallup, because those are viewd as right-wing polls, so you can probably imagine what those say.
So yes, even liberal sites are posting about Americans not liking democratic policies.
I don’t need to show any ideas to change America, because that is not my job. My job is to simply vote for or against those who run. It is THEIR job to come up with ideas to make this country better, and so fare they are failing.
The teaparties will help the economy like this: voting out politicians who are hurting the country and replace them with ones who will cut funding to useless causes, lower taxes, and raise import tariffs.
Oh, and you also, once again, proved your true ignorance.
America is not a democracy, it is a republic.
welfare is designed to help get people back on their feet, not to survive long term on. castor, have you met anyone on welfare? do you know their motivations or reasons for why they are in the situation that they are in? of course not, because you obviously have no empathy for their situation. why do you have such a focus on poor people as being the problem for america? the vitriol that castor shows against those in need is the hate that i mentioned before. it is based in ignorance and shows an utter disdain for those in tough situations.
and you called it castor, i’m going to call out your “evidence” for socialized medicine and redistribution of wealth. if you are looking for anything on the internet, you will find anything on the internet. so to find sites that support your point isn’t that hard. i could find websites with exactly the opposite points to support my ideas. but i chose to learn information from multiple sources and use that to debate. why can’t you come up with your own analysis of the issues and present that as evidence? do you really need to have other people think for you? and the redistribution of wealth “evidence” was from before the presidential election. what has obama done since the election to redistribute wealth?
the point about the fillibuster is supposed to show how conservatives have no ideas and no will to comprimise. so why should they be elected to office? what are they going to do when they have control of congress? are they going to continue to obstruct progress? americans voted republicans out of congress and elected obama as president in 2008. and no matter if you like it or not, the majority of americans like democratic ideas.
and so far castor, you have shown to have no ideas to realistically change america. so why should anyone of authority take the tea parties seriously? if their not going to add to the debate like adults, then all they’re doing is hurting american democracy.
if i’m wrong about this, lets hear some ideas. how will tea parties stimulate the economy? how will they bring jobs back to americans? how will they change the economy to prevent future depressions?
Actually other side i find that most of mr castor’s views coincide with my own. And nowhere in his posts did i see anything relating to hatred, so it appears you have a problem with misinterpretation.
“how can you live on $100 per week? that can’t pay for rent, clothing and food. what kind of quality of life would a person have on that low of at that level of poverty? ”
Then why have welfare, other side? Haha
Those people do live in poverty and apparently they accept it by living in public housing (funded by taxpayers) using public transportation (funded by the state which is funded by taxpayers) and living in poor conditions (they apparently dont care.)
Obama increased troops in afghanistan as a political move to draw right-leaning independents, just like harry reid tried to do by opening a firing range. So that point also has no impact whatsoever. If the democrats were to get relelected, he’d withdraw them in an instant.
“have you been seeing the unprecidented amount of fillibusters from republicans?”
Exactly my point when I said the republicans need to become more right. Republican rhinos like John Mccain support cap & trade, which is why we need to simply replace all of congress and the house.
FYI: Government-run healthcare IS socialized health care
http://www.fitsnews.com/2010/03/23/obama-signs-socialized-medicine-bill-into-law/
http://www.tulsabeacon.com/?p=3819
Seems like you are the only one who ISNT refering to it as socialized medicine.
Redistribution of wealth?
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/The-Vote/2008/1014/obamas-tax-plan-and-the-redistribution-of-wealth
http://www.suite101.com/content/obama-and-distribution-of-wealth-program-a73837
http://www.cnbc.com/id/27339578/Poll_Voters_Against_Obama_Wealth_Redistribution_Plan
But hey, all you will do is call this information unreliable and then say something durogatory about conservatism, so who cares.
you make one huge assumption in your argument: that people can accept making $100 per week. that shows how out of touch you are.
if you make minimum wage, $6 in minnesota, you will make more than $100 per week. but that’s beside the point. how can you live on $100 per week? that can’t pay for rent, clothing and food. what kind of quality of life would a person have on that low of at that level of poverty? and you think that people would just love that? accept that? that is a supremelly pessemistic view of people.
i’m not denying that there are people in america who really don’t want to work and take advantage of the system. there will always be mooches. but how many of them are there? enough to totally deny people who really are in need and willing to work? you won’t be able to help only 100% of the good people, but that doesn’t mean that the whole idea of helping the needy has to be discounted.
obama is not going to try the bush administration cronies that politicized the justice department or those who brought us into iraq. he increased troops in afghanistan instead of withdrawing. he is extending the withdrawal timeline of troops in iraq. continuing the no-bid defense contracts. and that is just foreign policy.
every one of obama’s domestic policies has been brought to the center because without that, no republicans would vote for anything. have you been seeing the unprecidented amount of fillibusters from republicans? how can obama pass anything even remotely left? the fillibuster made the stimulus bill weak (1/3 tax cuts to try and gain republicans and too little spending) and health care reform weak (no universal or single payer coverage, both of which would have made it more left). what part of the health care bill is socialized medicine? and other bills, energy independence and the disclose laws, cannot be passed.
obama has unprecidented difficulty in trying to pass agendas. as a result, to gain 60 votes, obama needs to start more towards the middle then negotiate more right to gain votes republican or blue dog democratic votes. so, even before a vote, everything that obama legislates is already more centrist. to put it planly, obama cannot pass anything far left in today’s politics.
you have this irrational belief that obama is leftist but do not look at his record for evidence. castor, what part of the health care bill is socialized medicine? how is obama trying to redistribute the wealth? you make these leaps without any basis in reality. please find actual evidence to support your points instead of uneducated talking points because they are easily debunked.
Put it this way, if a person makes 100 dollars per week doing absolutely nothing, then they won’t go and find a job unless it pays MORE than 100 dollars per week. Therefore, that person then destrophy’s any skills they formerly had, learns no new skills, and then they are virtually worthless as laborers. No business will hire someone who is basically useless.
What do we do with those without skills? If they make money for doing absolutley nothing and are apparently getting by living in public housing and taking public transportation, then do you honestly think that they would WANT to do anything else? No, quite simply, they wouldn’t. As much as you would love to believe, there are no people out there who would be honest enough to take a working job that pays less than welfare.
The situation seems to be very easy for YOU because you seem to blindly accept that EVERY person on welfare has some sort of physical need. This is obviously far from the truth.
NOW… Name ONE of Obama’s policies that are centerist, other side, just one.
He oozes liberalism like an infected wound!
He passed socialized healthcare which is an EXTREMELY liberal policy! He supports giving enemy terrorists a fair trial! And he wants to redistribute wealth! Hmm… last time I checked… yes thats right, wealth redistribution is a SOCIALIST agenda implemented in countries such as Russia and China!
There’s a reason hearing your views strengthens my beliefs, it’s because you keep reminding me of how stupid your views are.
zax, i do believe that many members of the tea party are legitimately frustrated with the government with miss-information and propaganda. but that frustration is being exploited by groups like freedom works and america for prosperity. that exploitation leads to such hostility and hate (just look at all the racist and disparaging signs and rhetoric at the rallies). there needs to be an end to the faux meme that tea parties are 100% grass roots.
castor, how realistic is your view that people in the community will help those in need? and what is the criteria for people showing good will to get through their problems? i understand your desire to consolidate power to the local level, that is part of your ideology. but when there is rampant unemployment, a crisis, then it is the government’s responsibility to step in. its exactly like after a natural disaster; the government steps in to help people in need at no fault of their own.
painting the majority of people on unemployment as just lazy and skillness makes the situation so much easier than it actually is. jobs are being lost because companies are losing money because people don’t have money to buy things because they are unemployed. they are cutting many jobs to stay afloat and they are replacing qualified employees with those less skilled who cost less. also, jobs are being shipped overseas because, again, employers want cheaper labor. so there are many qualified workers that are unemployed. there are people who work in the same position as me with graduate degrees. they have tried to find jobs at their qualification level but have not been able to find them. its easy to just label the unemployed as lazy because makes the situation a lot easier. but the situation is far from easy.
so the question remains: what do we do with those without skills? in your world, those people are lazy and don’t deserve attention. but in the real world, those people deserve dignity and a chance. so there needs to be real world adult solutions to the unemployment problem.
for instance, one time expenses on infrastructure will get people back to work and more money into the economy. its perfect because our roads, bridges, runways and rails are all in significant need of repair and supplies are so low right now because of the housing depression. so, this plan saves money in the long term because we will eventually have to pay for the infrastructure, gets people back to work and stimulates the economy. couple that plan with passing a bill to stop companies from shipping jobs overseas and that will bring many more jobs back to america. but the last idea is being fillibustered by republicans.
castor, i don’t think i’m going to change you one bit, that would be naive. when people hear opposing views it only strengthens their beliefs.
and zax again, if you read some of the things that castor is saying, it is truly based in hate. there might not be riots and chaos, but the sheer vitriol against obama is baseless and rooted in something more than just his policies. why would there be such an uproar about his birth certificate? why call him a marxist/socialist/nazi when his policies are centerist? and why all the consipiracies about sharia law or obama taking over the country? that leads people to fear for their lives and guns which leads to bad things. why is there an upick in the secession and insurrection talk? that’s what so scary about the tea parties: unhinged people with irrational beliefs about someone that they view as illigitimate.
If you are paid for nothing, you don’t go and get more skills. Eventually, your value as a worker is almost nothing. Who’s going to open a job position paying more than 100 for a worker that’s worth almost nothing? This is the reason why there’s unemployment, nobody is able to open job positions due to welfare and minimum wage. People in real needs get help from their community. If they’re good people and show good will and try to get over their problems, they get help. If they abuse the generosity of others, they don’t get any more help.
So no, other side, I do not see any point that you could possibly want to make.
Have you ever even been to a tea party?
How can you judge them so much?
There has been no violence or hate speech at any of them (unlike liberal rallies) and we are just a bunch of working class americans that are tired of our government.
what makes you think i lack compassion? are you projecting your own emotions because you know, deep down, i have a point? it makes no sense that you seem so concerned about issues so far removed from your life while real americans are suffering within your own city. and while i use your own words to show your total lack of empathy, you just keep throwing out factless charges about my compassion.
but i guess that is how the tea party operates. they hear what they want to hear that supports their biases. and what they hear are fact-less, racially-charged and violent propoganda spread by demogogues like glenn beck and rush limbaugh. those words foster strong emotions that lead to hate and potential violence. you cannot debate or reason with someone who is so shut off from rational thinking.
so that leads to this debate with castor. when i try and push for evidence or logical consistency to back castor’s charges, i’m met with emotions and distractions. why is there such a defensive front put up when defending policy positions? and to end it all, castor just says that this thread is a joke so we should just all laugh.
this is what obama is having to fight against to fix america. people who debate in bad faith and cannot add anything intellectual to policies. and these people want to run the country? they don’t have the competency to govern. and if they have such a disdain for government, then why do they want to become a part of it? the tea parties are dangerous to democracy.
i’m not looking for support on this site. i originally wanted to learn about conservatism by debating it with conservatives. and i have learned a lot from this site. conservatives have very passionate beliefs which is respectable. i don’t agree with everything, but that’s just politics. the main point is, how can we have a democracy without understanding those who disagree? instead of hating the other side, why not step back from your emotions and listen? its one thing to have a give and take about policy, but its another thing to just yell. this might be falling on deaf ears but i want to debate politics so i can expand my knowledge. i don’t know everything but have a curiosity to gain the point of view of conservatives. something that castor is not willing to do.
I think you’l find that I am being quite on-point with you as I am merely remarking on YOUR lack of compassion.
Keep your opinions then, but I’m sure you will find no support on this site, let alone convert any conservatives.
Oh, and I don’t want the governement to determine whether or not abortion should be allowed, I just want them to stop PROMOTING IT!
But you know what? This is a joke thread so instead of being serious again I’m just gonna laugh at your insolence.
this is the exact reaction that i was expecting. instead of addressing the issues that are literally affecting real americans everyday, you divert the discussion to world and social issues that are very emotionally fueled. the discussion has gotten to an uncomfortable point for you so you raise issues that were not being discussed. and with your hyperbole, you become more emotional and less rational. this reaction is why the tea parties are not healthy for america. instead of solving problems in america they get angry and more hateful. healthy debate and progress cannot be made in the face of emotion.
israel is a crisis, but what do you want america to do? attack iran? that is something that we cannot afford.
we are fighting radical islam in iraq and afghanistan and i do acknowledge that they are a threat to america. but how legitimate is the threat? they attack very infrequently, more people die because of the flu than do by the hands of extremists per year in america.
what would help reduce the amount of terrorists is to stop the hate talk about all of islam. the terrorists are a very small minority of islam, and the rest of islam abhors them. what fuels the recruitment of terrorists are people that demonize them and treat them like animals (guantamino). what the extremists don’t need are people that attack islam as a dangerous religion when most muslims are peaceful. the hate that is spewed at islam is transfered to recruit terrorists.
and this mess about the COMMUNITY CENTER near ground zero is pure hate. the building will not be primarily a religious institution. it will mainly serve to help the community. there was a prayer room in the twin towers and in the pentagon because people understood that freedom of religion is important in america. so why now is there such hate against the center? this push back against the building of the center shows that those against it attribute all of islam as dangerous which again helps the terrorists.
abortion is not part of this discussion. adding it only adds strong emotions. and i’m not for killing babies, i’m for a women to have the right to chose. and if conservatives want the government to stay out of people’s lives, then why do they want to have the government prevent women to chose an abortion? that choice seems to makes sense for conservative ideology.
compassion- “a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.” i do have the definition of compassion in my mind. that’s why i’m so frustrated with the tea party mindset. from what castor has written, there is no sympathy to those stricken by misfortune. and with the diversion to unrelated issues and no solutions of how the change the problem, it shows that castor has no strong desire to alleviate the suffering.
so, how about you tune down the anger and have an actual debate about the issues? i am actually learning a lot about the tea party mentality talking to castor and i might be naive, but it would be cool to find some point of agreement so i can understand that mentality.
You want compassion?!
Israel is under a constant threat that may even be NUCLEAR and YOU people don’t want to help them!
Innocent people are killed by radical islamists every day and YOU people don’t want to acknowledge it because of political correctness!
Hundreds of families with loved ones who died in the twin towers now may have to adjust to a MOSQUE being built just blocks from Ground Zero because YOU PEOPLE are the ones who want it to be PUT THERE!
Millions of unborn children are killed every day because people like YOU say that it is a proper alternative to adoption!
And yet you want to come onto this forums and try to portray us as the bad people…
But oh, the left is SOOO compassionate because they want to take hard earnings from the rich and give to the poor.
Why don’t you look up the definition of compassion, burn it into the blank blackboard of your mind, and then come back here and talk to me about friggin compassion.
______________________________________________________
i’m expressing my disappointment that an american would be so callous toward other americans. and you say that because you drive pass poor people means that you understand them? have you ever talked to someone in need and heard why they are in the situation that they are in?
your stance on the mentally ill shows your ignorance towards people in need. there are no more ‘asylums’ anymore. society is transitioning them into the community so they can have a higher quality of life. but in your view, because a person is afflicted with a mental illness, they should be treated like less than human and thrown where society cannot see them.
and where are these jobs for the limbless? its easy to say that people should just have jobs but its harder to find those jobs. its not realistic to just say that people without jobs should just work. that point of view does not address the issue, it just places blame.
many of your points are rooted in ideology but not in reality. you seem to think that people should just rise up from their difficult situations without having any understanding of what they are going through (again, driving past poor people does not mean you understand them). you blame so many people but do not raise any realistic ways to solve the problem. so, what ideas do you have for solving the economic crisis?
Suffering, maddening, judging, suffer, suffer, suffer. Aer you simply using loaded words to portray yourself as some sort of saint?
Here’s my deal:
1.Individuals with mental illneses that prevent them from holding a job should be commited to an asylum funded by the state, not given unemployment benefits. Asylums are good uses of taxpayer dollars.
2. Anyone who can work in ANY WAY should not be allowed unemployment benefits for any more than three months. And yes I do mean those with injuries as well. Just because you have lost you legs or arms does not mean you cannot work,(ex: office jobs) and if they simply give up and don’t even try, then they don’t deserve my pity. (This was actually proposed to me by a communist friend of mine)
3. I live in New Orleans. Every day I pass through streets where I see vagrants sitting on the steps of their public housing and either smoking or drinking. So don’t YOU blindly assume that I have a misunderstanding.
castor, where does your mindset that people in need chose not to work come from? i’m sure there are people out there who are lazy and don’t want to work if they can just get free money. but there are many more people that are in situations where they cannot dig themselves out. its not that they are too lazy to work, its that no matter how much they work or try to succeed they still can only live on minimum wage.
and to say that people who find themselves in tragic situations “don’t deserve to be provided for,” is maddening. i work with people with severe mental illnesses that prevent them from getting a job. they rely on government funds to help them live. if they did not have that support, then they would be homeless or worse. how are they supposed to gain employment if they are hearing voices or too depressed to even get out of bed? that situation is not a choice, if anything my clients don’t want to be the way they are. what if you cannot teach a man to fish because they cognitivelly cannot understand what you are teaching them? you’re saying that they should die.
what it seems to boil down to is a vast misunderstanding of those in need. the propaganda that they are lazy and unmotivated perpetuates the meme that they are to blame for the countries economic problems.
ironically, you do agree that taxes for the wealthy should be cut. why? if you give the wealthy tax cuts they don’t go out and spend it, they save it (you can only have so many cars and houses). trickle down economics is based off of the assumption that businesses will hire people with the money that they reep in tax breaks. businesses are hiring…in india and china where the labor is cheaper. only 2% of businesses would even qualify for the tax breaks, so where are the jobs coming from? why does someone making millions of dollars per year need more money?
what makes america great is the opportunity to succeed. but some people do not have that opportunity. if you take away hundreds of thousands of dollars from millionares, they still have plenty to live off of. if you take away the only income someone has, they have nothing. no way to survive.
like i said before, society is judged on how it treats the least fortunate among us. its a moral issue. how can people with so much watch people with nothing suffer? how can those who benefit from what america has to offer not feel that sense of helping those in need? we are all americans. some have a lot and can spare the money. some of us have nothing and need help. how can americans let other americans suffer?
Precisely my point, thank you for pointing that out.
I DO want to cut taxes for the wealthy.
I DO want to cut social programs.
Tell me, why should you, or me, or any other person in this country HAVE to provide for people who literally CAN NOT provide for themselves? Why should the governement take my hard earned money and give it to someone who puts no currency into the country’s cash flow?
Most people on wellfare CAN work. They just realise, hey, the government can provide all that I need, why work? They sit around on their porches and do drugs all day. An idle mind is the devil’s workshop.
And if they seriously cannot work, (and I’m not speaking for all conservatives here, I’m speaking for myself) then I say that they do not deserve to be provided for.
Have you heard the expression give a man a fish and he eats for a day, but teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime?
The problem with LIBERALISM is that it is TOO in touch with those in need and bears no concern for the people who make the majority of the country’s money.
Success needs to be earned and respected, not taken.
Yes, the wellfare recipients do recieve a mere several hundred dollars per week, but when compared to the amount of people getting that money, it all adds up.
Do you believe that the reason that Obama’s approval rating has dropped to around 47 percent is because he and his administration are doing a good job? NO! They are failing this country, they are failing their people, and they may not know it, but they are failing themselves.
You know what? just wait til elections my friend. Conservatives will kick liberals out of the offices that the dems clearly don’t deserve.
one of the fundamental tenets of conservatism is individual responsibility. fair enough, it makes a lot of sense that people should reep what they sew and lift themselves up with their own boot straps. in an ideal world, everyone would have the opportunity to succeed and with proper work ethic and desire people would be able to reach what ever level their skill set allows for.
however, in reality there are many obsticles that prevent people from having the opportunity to succeed. poverty, the growing income gap, mental illness and racial inequality are some realities of our modern day america that stand in the way of people being able to succeed. people find themselves in situations where they have a lot of things working against themselves and make it difficult to work. as a result, it is the responsibility of the country to support those people because if it didn’t, those people would not survive. how can a person with little to no skills find a job?
and many of the people with little to now skills have a difficult time finding ways to learn new skills. poor schools, racism and a physical lack of skills contribute to people’s inability to grow. so people are born into a situation that has little chance of allowing them to succeed. it would be great for them to pull themselves up by their boot straps and succeed but what if they are too poor to afford straps? how can they have any chance of success if the world around them is pushing them down? its not laziness, its a systematic problem with many aspects of america.
also, how much to people on welfare get? hundreds of dollars per month? how much will cutting welfare reduce the national debt? its ironic that conservatives want to cut social programs for people in real need but advocate for tax cuts for the wealthy. in a sense, not taxing the rich is the government putting money into their pockets…almost like welfare.
the problem with modern day conservatism is that it is so distant and out of touch with people in need. i keep hearing that people without health care or those on unemployment are lazy. if they would just do more then they can acheive success. people who work for acorn are destructive to america. even though they are such a small organization, they are going to destroy the america electoral system. why is there such vitriol against those less fortunate? where does this disdain for people in a situation where they need to rely on external help come from? do conservatives think that the majority of those on welfare are happy with where they are?
society is judged on how it treats the least fortunate among them and we as a society need to take the benefits that we have earned to help those in need. its not a significant amount per person but when added together, our collective greatness is significant. to make america the best community in the world, we need to help support those in need. those who have benefited from america’s greatness can spare something to give to those who need help. so to hear those who only care about their own wealth and blames those with nothing saddens me.
No, I am not calling the people who have pre-existing conditions lazy, but I am calling them lazy, in a way.
They WOULD be able to afford healthcare if they would get off their wellfare and DO something.
And that’s another thing that I believe should be cut… wellfare.
Wellfare started out as a good idea for those individuals who have reached a rough spot in the economic lives, but in recent years, uneducated lower class citizens have been LIVING off of it.
Why should I give my hard-earned money to someone who doesnt deserve it? Why should they get to lay around and do nothing all day while I work? Can you imagine how much revenue would be put into the flow if wellfare was cut and those lazy people actually started working?!
And about devaluing the dollar?
http://newamerica-now.blogspot.com/2010/10/g-20-to-order-usa-devalue-dollar-by-50.html
voi-la.
I can deny anything I want, ESPEcIALLY that we need to spend more and more money to get out of a depression! Our governemnt has been digging itself into a hole with all this spending, if we find ourselves in a hole, we should stop digging = stop spending.
Tell me how spending will get us out of a depression, please. All it is doing is raising our debt and bringing the value of the dollar down. How could THAT be helping us?
Why would you want to cut military spending? Do you WANT America to be weaker?
I bet you live in California, but if you don’t, go there. It is the biggest mass of pure liberalism in the country, and you know what? Their economy has TANKED! Why? Because they are the guinea pig state for all the liberal political acts.
Finally, you call the tea parties dangerous?
I laugh at you.
Violent liberal protests:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2479423/posts
http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=1911441
I looked up “violent liberals”
Look up violent tea partiers and see what you get, NOTHING haha.
i’m glad that you are at least admitting that bush has some fault for the economic mess that we are in. however, the tax cuts and wars will continue to contribute to the future deficits. they are the significant expeditures that are causing the debt to be in the trillions. they aren’t one time expeditures like the stimulus was, they could continue to add debt for yeats. so again, bush’s policies are what are making the debt high for future generations.
obama’s main concern is not the national debt, it is trying to bring america back from the brink of disaster. how can we pay down the debt when the unemployment rate is increasing and tax revenue is decreasing? to get america out of a depression, there needs to be federal spending, can you deny that?
how much will your economic policy reduce the debt? by millions? that is still way below any significant debt reduction policy. and acorn? how much federal funds did they take in before being smeared? not much compared to the wealthy who are raking it in with their tax breaks.
you are calling the 30 million people who are uninsured lazy? the people who cannot afford health care because of the skyrocketing costs? the people with pre-existing conditions that cannot get health care because the insurance industry won’t cover them? they are all lazy? there you go blaming the victim as ‘lazy.’ and there is no socilized medicine. no single payer or universal health care. where is that in the health care bill because if it were in there it would be a miracle.
and where is the proof of this obama conspiracy to reduce to value of the dollar? glenn beck’s show?
so to recap castor: you don’t acknowledge that the bush policies are what are driving the national debt to be high for years, don’t realize that you can’t reduce the debt in a economic crisis, give no realistic ways to decrease the debt (like reduce military spending and let the tax cuts for the weathly die), blame the uninsured as being lazy when its not all their fault for not having insurance and throw out a fact free conspiracy. this is what obama and democrats have to fight against to bring america back to sanity: people who are angry at obama just for being a liberal and use their own emotional blindspot to deny anything liberal as destructive to america. all that with no comprehension of facts leads to a dangerous mix that is behind the tea parties.
I’m sorry other side, did you not hear me correctly?
I deliberately said that we had no issues with Bush UNTIL the bush bailouts, so yes I am granting him some blame, but not as much as obama deserves.
Get you ego out of you eyes and read correctly.
Obama may have inherited a trillion dollar debt, but he has done nothing but make it worse! The stimulus, the health care, his ugly wife going on shopping sprees…
You wanna know where I think they should cut spending?
All of the funding to special intrest groups and the media. These groups are paid to support them in any way possible, exapmle? Acorn. And it’s been two years that egomaniacal slag has been in office and he hasn’t done a THING to help the economy.
It seems like this is what you liberals do:
Number one: Lie (of course)
Number two: Blame Bush
Number three: insult
All three of these tactics have been demonstrated by you.
How have obamas policies ruined America? The implementation of universal healthcare will do good ONLY to people who are too lazy to get healthcare in the first place. This healthcare is then provided by the government using taxpayer dollars. Where do you think TAXPAYER DOLLARS come from? Obama? No, they come from people like me, middle class, working people, and our children. Our children will be paying off the debt obama has brought to us for decades.
Oh, speaking of paying off the debt, one of obama’s affiliates proposed cutting the value of the dollar by FIFTY PERCENT in order to pay the debt faster.
Yeah… thatll help.
In other words people will be making the same amount of money they do now, but it will be worth half as much. Loaves of bread once costing four dollars will jump to eight. People making 70 thousand dollars a year will make 35 thousand… you see where I’m going with this? Not only are democrats ignorant, they also bear no care for the average American.
So shove THAT in your stimulus.
castor, spending has been proven to be the most effective way to get out of a depression. also, without spending, the depression would have worsened.
federal spending in the form of stimulus and middle class tax cuts puts money back into the hands of those who are being hit the hardest by the depression, the poor and the middle class. they are the people that will use the extra income to purchase more necessities like food and clothing which gives money to business. furthermore, spending on public sector projects like roads and bridges not only puts people back to work (which leads to more money in their hands and more spending) but it also provides a needed upgrade to our deteriorating infrastructure.
so what is the alternative? cut federal spending and cut taxes on the wealthy? that poses two problems: where do you cut enough spending and how will tax cuts on the wealthy spur economic growth? both of those ideas do not spur job growth or economic recovery.
also, castor, are you blaming obama with the economic crisis solely because he is in office and not giving any responsibility to bush? that is unbelievable. that is neglecting how the two wars and unpaid bush tax cuts skyrocketed the national debt and how the deregulation of wall street contributed to the economic downturn. the policies of the bush administration caused the current problem.
obama inherited a trillion dollar national debt and unemployment that was increasing. the economy was hemorreging jobs because of the housing bubble bursting. why do i think that unemployment is up and our debt is skyrocketing? again, because of the bush administration.
how was obama or any other liberals responsible for any of the economic woes? how have obama’s policies ruined america? and how can the policies provided by the republicans help the economy?
I do agree that the republicans need to work on their acts, but the democrats are much worse, please.
The dems seem to think that spending is the best way to get OUT of a depression. Im sorry, but we did not exactly have this sort of economic problem when bush was president, until the bush bailouts, but that pails in comparison to the spending on the health care and stimulus packages.
We didn’t have anywhere near the amount of debt we have now, all of a sudden, the dems are in power, unemployment is up, and our debt skyrockets by millions of dollars, why do you think that is?
I have taken a look at washington, and the liberals ARE doing something, they’re ruining the country, that’s what they’re doing.
its ironic that conservatives keep charging liberals with complaining without providing any new ideas. the past two years under obama have been filled with significant achievements in the face of republican obstructionism. wall street reform, the stimulus bill and health care reform are a few of the more significant policy victories that were passed in the face of constant fillibusters.
now republicans have a new pledge that says that all they are going to do is cut spending and lower taxes to solve the problem. the first idea is not realistic, where specifically are you going to cut funding, and the second idea has been shown to not stimulate job growth, where are the jobs from the 8 years of the bush tax cuts where taxes were at their lowest rates in years? republicans claim that they have new ideas but all they have are old/disproven fall-back points.
to recap, republicans not only block any ideas that democrats have, but they also have nothing new to add. so to claim like this post does that democrats only complain without any ideas is pure projection. and to top it all off, tea baggers and republicans consistently blame obama for every ill in america.
so to joe and castor who respond to this post with nonsense, take a look at what’s currently happening in washington before charging liberals with doing nothing.
I had a recent event like this happen to me.
A girl in my class ( and a brainwashed flaming liberal ) asked me how to solve a complex conjugate problem (pre-calculus). So I explained it to her exactly the way the teacher did, because she wasn’t paying attention when the teacher explained it, and she told me that I’m not good at explaining and that she shouldn’t have asked me anyway.
I politely smiled, looked her square in the eye, and said “well maybe if you would open your friggin eyes, you would see the things going on around you and be able to interpret them YOURSELF!”
Her face went flat and she turned away.
We used to date, big mistake.
Sounds just like the idiot in the Whitehouse blame it on everyone else and still do nothing to solve the problem.
o shut up marc! its just a joke… or is it…?
The joke is funny, but Marc is funnier.
I’m narrow-minded! I never understood how that was such a bad thing. Right and wrong are not necessarily “broad” things. It’s kindda hard to seriously focus on anything if you try to look too broadly.
I wouldn’t say by definition we’re narrow-minded. We’re more traditional I guess, so in a way perhaps.
Um liberals have a sense of humor and liberals are not a disease it seems to me leslie is a very narrow minded republican. In fact conservatives by definition are more narrow minded than liberals. For example on subjects of religion and sex Conservatives are much more narrow minded, I believe the sentiment I got from my Baptist schooling was “our way is the only way, agree with us or go to hell”. When I first heard this joke 5 years ago it was a product engineer in the boat and a sales person in the balloon. That joke was much funnier.
Thank you, Marc, for proving the point of the joke so succinctly.
love this one! I can’t remember who said this, “Liberalism is a disease”…but so true! they are also blind and deaf
So true. Too bad liberals don’t have a sense of humor.
great joke and so true, its kinda sad to think we have so many narrow minded people in this country
“Lol, this is exactly the type of cruel, senseless humor I’ve been looking for. I’ll show this to everybody I know, and point out how the republican was completely unwilling to help someone in need. Nice, you bastard. Not that I hate all republicans, it’s just some, like you, are simply irrational.”
Good job Marc, you attacked someone who was merely laughing at the fact of how people like you act. I’ll be sure to add your comment when I print off the joke and show it to my right minded friends.
Marc, be quiet. This is hilarious.
Yeah, yeah, whatever.
^_^ I don’t really get hurt by insults, by the way.
I hope you had fun venting, anyways. =)
Lol, this is exactly the type of cruel, senseless humor I’ve been looking for. I’ll show this to everybody I know, and point out how the republican was completely unwilling to help someone in need. Nice, you bastard. Not that I hate all republicans, it’s just some, like you, are simply irrational.
OMG LOL
I love this joke. And it makes perfect sense.